I am reminded of some old footage, of Bob Dylan being asked a question by an interviewer.
His response seems entirely apposite to your question - 'if you even have to ask there's no way I can answer.'
International Men's Day.
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I am reminded of some old footage, of Bob Dylan being asked a question by an interviewer.
His response seems entirely apposite to your question - 'if you even have to ask there's no way I can answer.'
The ability to compartmentalise feelings and not become overwhelmed by them certainly seems to be a built in survival mechanism, particularly for men. An incredibly useful one. Though, I'm sure for a lot of guys it leads to repression and then down hill from there.
For me, it's a useful tool. But I have ways of venting when the storm dies down, so to speak.
Unfortunately, I don't think we've lost that repression in society, and with it comes your abusers and bullies.
I enjoy talking to people about these subjects, I get a lot out of hearing different opinions and generally approach the conversation in good spirits.
But, if you insult a man and then refuse to justify yourself, and instead parrot a meaningless quote, perhaps it's best not to insult anyone to begin with.
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Doctor Jordan Peterson is a compelling and articulate speaker
Looks down to the side to gather my thoughts. He is well dressed .
I would be very hesitant to blunder into a debate ill prepared. I’ve read his books, enjoyed his earlier lectures even in disagreement.
BUT, somewhere, the wheels came off and the megalomania of fame set in. I saw the same attitude in my university professors. When a geographer states your graduate thesis on a marine crossing to the New World is wrong ( unread) one double checks that Texas is still the red state next to the yellow and blue ones.
JD is is on a personal religious journey towards Roman Catholicism. Good on him, hope it brings fulfillment. But all of a sudden humanity started in the judeo Christian tradition. Gone is Gilgamesh, the caves of Lascaux and Altamira, stone megaliths, The Buddha. It’s like your family photo book started in 1950 and HMS Belfast a cruise ship.
JD has embraced a lot of reactionary people and facades erected like a Hollywood set. Wash down the paint and special effects, remove the actors makeup. It’s a lot of angry dog whistle and illusion to very old, very hateful tropes.
That is his fall from grace no less than that William Blake engraving.
Looks down to the side to gather my thoughts. He is well dressed .
I would be very hesitant to blunder into a debate ill prepared. I’ve read his books, enjoyed his earlier lectures even in disagreement.
BUT, somewhere, the wheels came off and the megalomania of fame set in. I saw the same attitude in my university professors. When a geographer states your graduate thesis on a marine crossing to the New World is wrong ( unread) one double checks that Texas is still the red state next to the yellow and blue ones.
JD is is on a personal religious journey towards Roman Catholicism. Good on him, hope it brings fulfillment. But all of a sudden humanity started in the judeo Christian tradition. Gone is Gilgamesh, the caves of Lascaux and Altamira, stone megaliths, The Buddha. It’s like your family photo book started in 1950 and HMS Belfast a cruise ship.
JD has embraced a lot of reactionary people and facades erected like a Hollywood set. Wash down the paint and special effects, remove the actors makeup. It’s a lot of angry dog whistle and illusion to very old, very hateful tropes.
That is his fall from grace no less than that William Blake engraving.
Kav, I wasn't really looking to dissect the man's personality. As you mentioned it, I do have a lot of respect for many of his ideas. I can't say I've seen the megalomania of fame setting in. If anything, I would say he has handled being pushed into the spotlight very well and still maintains a noble goal.
Figuring out what it is that's lacking in many young men's lives seems to be the question to address. There are clearly issues which are worthy of discussion.
I'll refrain from getting into a debate. If you start up a new thread on the subject perhaps I'll attempt to blunder my way through, with my ill prepared thoughts.
This just reminds me of the Little Britain character whose catchphrase is ' Whatever ' - doesn't really say much.
Is Bob Dylan considered to be someone worth listening too?
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I was referring to a debate with the man himself. He is still a compelling voice worth listening to. I think people have been ‘unchivalrous’ to use a old masculine concept Towards him. I emphasize deeply, having been ill subscribed benzodiazepine by an idiot V A doctor too. The attacks by IE Noam Chomsky smacked of simple jealousy . My esteem of Chomsky and others have taken a hit with their appeasement of the leftist motherland.
In any case, this is a strange forum for such a debate! Do you strike your ferro rod on the correct end?
( Swift’s egg cracking reference)
OMG, I really need to clean my room!!!!
Forums are notoriously awkward for exchanging ideas. We need leather chairs and pints to do that. PAX and no apology needed.
A spanner and lug nuts can put a tyre back on. JP was embraced by
Right Wing America and carried aloft in their arms like a sports hero. His dialog is being defined by
Them and losing the audience he should be addressing. As a left winger( inartful pigeonhole ) I see plenty of hypocrisy. George Orwell had the same reaction and couldn’t stand his fellow socialists.
JP is a psychologist- a damn good one and observer of the world. But,
“Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar”
As far as I'm concerned it takes TWO to embrace , in the same way as it takes two to love.
The far right may have had an interest in his works and used it for their own ends ( " may have ")
But he didn't write those words for them. His Dialog is his own. Its not being defined by anyone - he is clearly precise on this and very articulate on the matter of what are his words as opposed to what other wish to attribute to him. As we all should be.
Massive difference.
Some of Peterson's 'wisdom' on display:
'women have a subconscious wish for brutal male dominance'.
'it's unfortunate that men can't control women'.
'the idea that women are oppressed throughout history is an appalling theory'.
'if a woman doesn't want to have children there's something wrong with her'.
plus many MANY more.
The man is a misogynist, pure and simple. And if you agree with him then you may need to face a less than pleasant fact about yourself.
'women have a subconscious wish for brutal male dominance'.
'it's unfortunate that men can't control women'.
'the idea that women are oppressed throughout history is an appalling theory'.
'if a woman doesn't want to have children there's something wrong with her'.
plus many MANY more.
The man is a misogynist, pure and simple. And if you agree with him then you may need to face a less than pleasant fact about yourself.
Selecting finite quotes without context can mislead but then again those quotes are not good in their own. I hope they are kind of devil's advocate statements that he then tore apart but having seen him debate on QT I've heard him say questionable things like those quotes so suspect he is on the misogynistic scale. Even if not I don't rate him as someone to listen to too closely.
Earlier people discussed toxic masculinity as something being misused, misunderstood or just wrong. How there's no equivalent negative phrase used "against" women. I think the term feminist is used negatively in a similar way. Imho using a term that includes a derivative of a classical language for women is part of the issue. Most feminism argues for family, community and society so really needs renaming. Certainly not man hating often attributed to it.
This is all part of the issue, separating male and female from issues that affects all ultimately. Division and arguments that divide. Perhaps it's better to find what works for all?
This is all part of the issue, separating male and female from issues that affects all ultimately. Division and arguments that divide. Perhaps it's better to find what works for all?
Your quotes are completely out of context.
Does your first quote refer to him talking about radical feminists unwilling to criticise Islam?
If so, he poses a question: "Is there an attraction that's emerging among the female radicals for that totalitarian male dominance that they've chased out of the west... that's a hell of a thing to think."
It's also preceded by: "It's not like I believe this, I'm just telling you where the edges of my thinking have been going".
I have a respect for people willing to pose difficult questions at the risk of being labelled a misogynist.
I feel this thread is going/verging on the near/very political at the moment.
And I'd rather it doesn't get shut down as I honestly do feel its worth keeping open.
But I understand if you disagree.
On a personal basis I'm pleased that guys can talk with other guys about what they consider are 'guy' issues and anything that helpfully acknowledges that and allows men an opportunity to talk and discuss things is good as far as I'm concerned.
If there is a lack of parity in society that is fixable - then lets do that for whomever - whichever sex - I don't know if we will achieve complete equity but at least and hopefully there will be equal opportunities for all. And then everyone gets a fair hand to play.
And I'd rather it doesn't get shut down as I honestly do feel its worth keeping open.
But I understand if you disagree.
On a personal basis I'm pleased that guys can talk with other guys about what they consider are 'guy' issues and anything that helpfully acknowledges that and allows men an opportunity to talk and discuss things is good as far as I'm concerned.
If there is a lack of parity in society that is fixable - then lets do that for whomever - whichever sex - I don't know if we will achieve complete equity but at least and hopefully there will be equal opportunities for all. And then everyone gets a fair hand to play.
In my Dads/ Grandads working day the men all went to the pub for one pint of light ale straight from work, to work out the days problems, before they went home straight out of the shipyards. Now ex forces men talk to their old best mate rather than their wife, girlfriend
Light ale!
Arrrrrgh!
That's the answer to a crossword clue I couldn't get today!
How bloody annoying.
It's in the bin now, so I can't even go back and fill it in.
Still, all complete in my mind now.
Bloody light ale...
Arrrrrgh!
That's the answer to a crossword clue I couldn't get today!
How bloody annoying.
It's in the bin now, so I can't even go back and fill it in.
Still, all complete in my mind now.
Bloody light ale...
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