International Men's Day.

[MikeLA]

Light ale!
Arrrrrgh!
That's the answer to a crossword clue I couldn't get today!
How bloody annoying.
It's in the bin now, so I can't even go back and fill it in.

Still, all complete in my mind now.
Bloody light ale...

IPA gods gift to us humans, light enough for a drink, without the hangover. Now that’s changed the thread !

 

[William_Montgomery]

Earlier people discussed toxic masculinity as something being misused, misunderstood or just wrong. How there's no equivalent negative phrase used "against" women. I think the term feminist is used negatively in a similar way. Imho using a term that includes a derivative of a classical language for women is part of the issue. Most feminism argues for family, community and society so really needs renaming. Certainly not man hating often attributed to it.

This is all part of the issue, separating male and female from issues that affects all ultimately. Division and arguments that divide. Perhaps it's better to find what works for all?

I think there is a bit of a divide between old school feminism and modern, third-wave feminism.
The latter seems to be more characterised by hostility towards men.

A lot of the older feminists I've come across seem to be more supportive of men's mental health. Christina Hoff Sommers is a good example of that.

 

[FerlasDave]

In my Dads/ Grandads working day the men all went to the pub for one pint of light ale straight from work, to work out the days problems, before they went home straight out of the shipyards. Now ex forces men talk to their old best mate rather than their wife, girlfriend

Is that a helpful/conducive way to behave in a relationship though? And is one actually “talking it through” at the pub or numbing the pain with alcohol?

 

[Kav]

At this point , I will withdraw from the thread quoting my Godfather in his iconic role’ Has the war started?’ Rising unseen from a loveseat pelted with broken bric a brac.
My lunch ale is just about drinking temperature.

 

[Laurentius]

Earlier people discussed toxic masculinity as something being misused, misunderstood or just wrong. How there's no equivalent negative phrase used "against" women. I think the term feminist is used negatively in a similar way. Imho using a term that includes a derivative of a classical language for women is part of the issue. Most feminism argues for family, community and society so really needs renaming. Certainly not man hating often attributed to it.

This is all part of the issue, separating male and female from issues that affects all ultimately. Division and arguments that divide. Perhaps it's better to find what works for all?

I am going to put aside my duelling sword and put my sociologists hat on for a moment. "toxic masculinity" is not about blokes in sheds, or even my late lamented dad complaining to the pub that the barmaids were allowed to wear trousers, it is the laddish culture where the kids have to shank anybody their age from another estate who dares to cross the road. It is this bizarre Incel culture you may have read about that has infected the internet. Stealing cars and setting fire to them, that sort of thing. My mum was a feminist after the fact, who dared to wear trousers never mind what my dad thought, but joking aside her feminism was being practically involved with women's health issues and women's refuges, issues that were neglected in 80s Britain.

 

[MikeLA]

Is that a helpful/conducive way to behave in a relationship though? And is one actually “talking it through” at the pub or numbing the pain with alcohol?

My grandad always stayed for the one pint to discuss the day therefore no issues were taken home. That’s good to me and when I’ve had a hard day in the past when I taught hard to reach kids I did go to the pub a couple of times just to unwind and think. My work place was too close to home and the drive didn’t give me the time to do that.
As for talking to your wife, yes I know what you mean but sometimes a mate helps you with issues then talking to your partner or just to clear your head when he is an outsider living not at your home so has a neutral prospective.

So short answer Yes it works

 

[TeeDee]

I am going to put aside my duelling sword and put my sociologists hat on for a moment. "toxic masculinity" is not about blokes in sheds, or even my late lamented dad complaining to the pub that the barmaids were allowed to wear trousers, it is the laddish culture where the kids have to shank anybody their age from another estate who dares to cross the road. It is this bizarre Incel culture you may have read about that has infected the internet. Stealing cars and setting fire to them, that sort of thing. My mum was a feminist after the fact, who dared to wear trousers never mind what my dad thought, but joking aside her feminism was being practically involved with women's health issues and women's refuges, issues that were neglected in 80s Britain.

Respectfully that sounds more like basic Gang culture which is an issue but attracts predominately young men AND young females ( albeit in a minority )

I don't feel/believe your definition relates to what the media is painting when they use the term. If they wished to they could then attribute direct acts of violence or criminal action - whilst mostly it remains some vague 'catch all' term

IMO.

 

[William_Montgomery]

"Toxic masculinity" is a meaningless phrase. It's got about as much substance as "white privilege". Both phrases reek of bitterness.
It's used as an attack on traditional masculinity.

 

[FerlasDave]

My grandad always stayed for the one pint to discuss the day therefore no issues were taken home. That’s good to me and when I’ve had a hard day in the past when I taught hard to reach kids I did go to the pub a couple of times just to unwind and think. My work place was too close to home and the drive didn’t give me the time to do that.
As for talking to your wife, yes I know what you mean but sometimes a mate helps you with issues then talking to your partner or just to clear your head when he is an outsider living not at your home so has a neutral prospective.

So short answer Yes it works

That’s an exemplary explanation. That approach seems far more well rounded and positive.

 

[FerlasDave]

I have a theory that a lot of these issues are to do with the fact that men often assimilate emotion with physical response, and this leads to problems with things like self control, issues with relationships, fighting, poor communication etc.

Not to say this is some kind of grey matter in our DNA that must be undone, or that all men are inherently this way inept. But I would argue that positive male role models who are able to demonstrate and coach young men in ways of dealing with situations, and communicating properly are a huge part of the solution.

And I definitely think there are a lot more of these types of men in the world, and I would guess they are usually the ones living more traditional, conservative lifestyles. (Without being too political there)

So, masculinity (to me) isn’t defined by how many fights you can win or how many women you’ve slept with. The men I remember, the ones I stay friends with and the ones I go to when I’m in need.. They are those who give their time reliably, who hand you a brew when you’re cold and wet, who will listen first, who are men of their word… I could go on! Basically, top blokes who understand my thoughts and feelings and want to see me flourish as an effective part of the community.

 

[William_Montgomery]

I have a theory that a lot of these issues are to do with the fact that men often assimilate emotion with physical response, and this leads to problems with things like self control, issues with relationships, fighting, poor communication etc.

Not to say this is some kind of grey matter in our DNA that must be undone, or that all men are inherently this way inept. But I would argue that positive male role models who are able to demonstrate and coach young men in ways of dealing with situations, and communicating properly are a huge part of the solution.

And I definitely think there are a lot more of these types of men in the world, and I would guess they are usually the ones living more traditional, conservative lifestyles. (Without being too political there)

So, masculinity (to me) isn’t defined by how many fights you can win or how many women you’ve slept with. The men I remember, the ones I stay friends with and the ones I go to when I’m in need.. They are those who give their time reliably, who hand you a brew when you’re cold and wet, who will listen first, who are men of their word… I could go on! Basically, top blokes who understand my thoughts and feelings and want to see me flourish as an effective part of the community.

Certainly for myself, when needing to vent, physical expression plays a big part.
Without guidance and good role models, that energy tends to lead to destructive tendencies. But properly harnessed, can lead to incredible creativity and have a hugely positive impact.
Being around decent, honourable men who strive to bring out the best in each other is a powerful thing.

 

[Paul_B]

I am going to put aside my duelling sword and put my sociologists hat on for a moment. "toxic masculinity" is not about blokes in sheds, or even my late lamented dad complaining to the pub that the barmaids were allowed to wear trousers, it is the laddish culture where the kids have to shank anybody their age from another estate who dares to cross the road. It is this bizarre Incel culture you may have read about that has infected the internet. Stealing cars and setting fire to them, that sort of thing. My mum was a feminist after the fact, who dared to wear trousers never mind what my dad thought, but joking aside her feminism was being practically involved with women's health issues and women's refuges, issues that were neglected in 80s Britain.

Don't forget the pick up artists and Andrew tTate types too! That's toxic for sure. They think it makes them real men but imho they're predatory, misogynist who should be locked up. Here's hoping the Romanian authorities get it done!

One old timer once lamented that lads the days don't sort their issues out with you one on one but they get their mates involved. He said any problems you had with someone when he was younger got sorted out without mates being involved or weapons. A bit of a dust up then all forgotten. Now if that happens the lower is as likely to get the winner back with his mates involved later on. Years ago guys at my old company used to go out back. 5 minutes they're back and all settled.

i don't condone that but today things are a lot worse than that at times.

Sorry I'm rambling!

 

[William_Montgomery]

Don't forget the pick up artists and Andrew tTate types too! That's toxic for sure. They think it makes them real men but imho they're predatory, misogynist who should be locked up. Here's hoping the Romanian authorities get it done!

Did you really just publicy state that you're "hoping" a man gets locked up, whilst presumably criticising 'toxic' behaviour?

 

[Kav]

Andrew Tate IS locked up. He is profiled as ‘American-British’ I’m
Not confident Gentleman in either
Want a sexual predator who measures manhood in testosterone cars to irritate Greta Thurnberg and beats on people for income and social contribution.
Nelson Mandela was in a critical meeting ending Apartheid with
National reconciliation instead of further violence. A cleaning lady walked into the hotel room. Mandela stood up, buttoned his jacket and said ‘ may I help you madam?’
That’s Manhood.

 

[TeeDee]

Andrew Tate IS locked up. He is profiled as ‘American-British’ I’m
Not confident Gentleman in either
Want a sexual predator who measures manhood in testosterone cars to irritate Greta Thurnberg and beats on people for income and social contribution.
Nelson Mandela was in a critical meeting ending Apartheid with
National reconciliation instead of further violence. A cleaning lady walked into the hotel room. Mandela stood up, buttoned his jacket and said ‘ may I help you madam?’
That’s Manhood.

I know a few people that could and would consider that act sexist in itself.

I realise you are espousing a general chivalrous notion of gentlemanly conduct but that truly isn't what some parties want

 

[TeeDee]

Don't forget the pick up artists and Andrew tTate types too! That's toxic for sure. They think it makes them real men but imho they're predatory, misogynist who should be locked up. Here's hoping the Romanian authorities get it done!

Just asking but what would the female equivalent of that type of behaviour look like ( specifically PUA ) ? - Gold digging?? What would you have done with people that exhibit that type of behavioural pattern?

 

[Wander]

Did you really just publicy state that you're "hoping" a man gets locked up, whilst presumably criticising 'toxic' behaviour?

If he is found guilty of rape and human trafficking then, yes, I DO think he should be locked up.
Don't you?

Just asking but what would the female equivalent of that type of behaviour look like ( specifically PUA ) ? - Gold digging?? What would you have done with people that exhibit that type of behavioural pattern?

A slightly disingenuous question, TeeDee. You're better than that.
Simple gold digging? Then both parties are consenting adults so let them get on with it.
But Tate stands accused of rape and human trafficking and if guilty then he faces the appropriate sentence, regardless of gender (just ask Ghislaine Maxwell).

 

[C_Claycomb]

As was pointed out elsewhere on the net. We might not approve of Andrew Tate's life style, but he has not yet been convicted of crimes, although many seem to want to believe him guilty already. If he is found guilty, either that means that there is/are some victims of rape out there, which is bad, or an innocent man has been jailed because he looks good for it, which is also bad, even when that man is as objectionable as A Tate.

 

[Brizzlebush]

This is an excellent book, written by an excellent therapist working with men and boys.

I think it lays out a history of men, where we've been and a lot of the issues in a clear and accessible way.

It's also a lot clearer than me!
I would recommend it to anyone involved in this discussion.

 

[Tengu]

That sounds a good book.

Anyone read `Iron John`?