Kim said:
As god intended
I think the food productino would ecome far less wasteful so more people then you'd think would be able to live off the amount of land in the UK. It would take a lot of organisation though
Hypothetical question - Living off the land
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As god intended
I think the food productino would ecome far less wasteful so more people then you'd think would be able to live off the amount of land in the UK. It would take a lot of organisation though
Very interesting scenario Adi.
I think the honest answer is that Britain could sustain a large number of people, although not as many as currently reside here.
But the actual number who COULD live off the land woudl be an extremely smaller number.
The crofters and suchlike probably wouldn't feel much impact, but most otehr would be completely stuffed - no microwave dinners or frozen mashed potato in the shops, many modern people just wouldn't be able to cope so would either starve or emigrate.
Hope fully most of us on here would be ok, and I'd like to hope that I personally would survive as I grow most of my own veg and fruits anyway and wouldn't be averse to going hunter, fishing, foraging etc.
I think the honest answer is that Britain could sustain a large number of people, although not as many as currently reside here.
But the actual number who COULD live off the land woudl be an extremely smaller number.
The crofters and suchlike probably wouldn't feel much impact, but most otehr would be completely stuffed - no microwave dinners or frozen mashed potato in the shops, many modern people just wouldn't be able to cope so would either starve or emigrate.
Hope fully most of us on here would be ok, and I'd like to hope that I personally would survive as I grow most of my own veg and fruits anyway and wouldn't be averse to going hunter, fishing, foraging etc.
The mood I'm in today I can think of a few people I'd like to put in my freezer (assuming we still had electricity mind you.)
:shock:
:shock:
I think that just like countries where war/famine/drought has had an effect, the issue is not so much with the people who can cope in whatever way. But with others who are displaced and are thrown in to areas that might be able to cope with their own populations but who wouldn't have enough to deal with an influx of displaced refugees.
I take Tants point that there probably would be a degree of lawlessness at first - with those who were unable to sustain themselves taking from those who could. But it would probably only take a winter or two before things settled down.
The issue would be very much about the otherwise law abiding displaced people who would be unable to stay in the towns and cities as they couldn't grow enough food there.
I live in a very small rural area where we could very easily sustain the local population with the basics for any length of time (they've been doing it here for hundreds of years). But what would I do if an influx of displaced people came knocking, looking for a place they could settle and have a share of the land? The only difference between them and me is that I would have and they would not. Would I turn them away? Could I turn them away?
I hope we never have to find out.
George
I take Tants point that there probably would be a degree of lawlessness at first - with those who were unable to sustain themselves taking from those who could. But it would probably only take a winter or two before things settled down.
The issue would be very much about the otherwise law abiding displaced people who would be unable to stay in the towns and cities as they couldn't grow enough food there.
I live in a very small rural area where we could very easily sustain the local population with the basics for any length of time (they've been doing it here for hundreds of years). But what would I do if an influx of displaced people came knocking, looking for a place they could settle and have a share of the land? The only difference between them and me is that I would have and they would not. Would I turn them away? Could I turn them away?
I hope we never have to find out.
George
Presumably there would have to be a big transference of skills to those 'refugees' who did move from the cities outwards, looking for sustainable land and groups already sustaining themselves. Then those who were sustaining themselves could share their knowledge of how to, with those who didn't.
Kinda like a big ole BCUK website!
Kinda like a big ole BCUK website!
Kim that would be the ideal wouldn't it - but I reckon that most people would just turn their backs on them and leave them to get on with it. Hundreds of thousands would starve to death and small numbers who muddled through would eventually be assimilated into the local economy. Not a nice picture but we've already seen it hundreds of times from Biafra to Ethiopea - and they had foreign aid agencies to help!
George
George
I'd like to believe that there is more to human nature than the old same ole' same ole'. I think there will always be those out for themselves, but in Britain, I think we've been pretty good at pulling together in the past when we've had too.
If believe you have to fear you're neighbour then they will react to your fear and the whole cycle perpetutes itself. A little hope goes a long way, and belief takes it even further.
If believe you have to fear you're neighbour then they will react to your fear and the whole cycle perpetutes itself. A little hope goes a long way, and belief takes it even further.
The general subsitance rule (dont quote me here) is 5 acres for farmer.
The general hunter gatherer rule is 30 kms.
Now do we assume that although the social structure, outside supplies, has collasped the governement still runs things?
Fuel reserves, food stocks and such could be stretched out for weeks if the governement maintains control - the army can provide homeland security ect and martial law would put an end to looters and create a few less mouths to feed. Money will mean very little. Lastly is America still functioning because I believe they - unlike europe - would come to our aid.
Of course if its so bad that government has done what it does best and saved its own fat face while leaving us to suffer then though who live in cities or near the urban spill will be in for a very bad time. Lawlessness would be rife, raping, murder, looting and general destruction would be everywhere and unless you have seen the speed at which a society breaks down you will not believe how quick this happens. Those living in a city would be wisest to feel immediately. Rural communities while possibly welcoming the first few urban refugees will soon close their borders as the trickle becomes a flood. Now as well as looring ect in the cities you will have small wars breaking out all over the countryside. Small armies of starving people attacking villages and farms. Any live stock will be taken - a brief incite into the scale of this destruction can be gleened if we look at the barren lands left in the wake of invading armies of the medievial period - now multiply these ten fold - we would rapidly eat the land clean.
Now the starvation would start and the first winter would see a massive death told - warbands would be on constant campign raiding for food and trying to protect their territory.
Those who survived the winter would sow in the spring, but the war would still rage because people being people we will always want what others have. That sumer would be hard too as all the meat stocks would have been killed in the first year and very few animals would be left.
Then would come the harvest, maybe the first time of plenty in for many months. Those who didnt farm would continue their raiding those who did would fit to defend themselves and their food stocks.
Another winter - more deaths - the population dwindling. Less people means some of the few animals surviving can breed and live into adult hood to breed themselves.
And so it would go on - the population would eventually stablise, in all likely hood we would be back to our pre-roman kingdom/tribal system game and farm stock would grow in numbers and life would slowly settle down into a rythm but gone will be the cars and the machines - some will try to rebuild civilisation - some wont only time will tell if we learnt anything.
Good story eh!!
Anyway conversative figures estimate it would take thirty year minimum for nature to reclaim all we have stolen from her - thirty years for game stocks to return to a huntable level upon which we (or at least a population equal to medievil britian) could sustain ourselves on.
In the interim period it would be rough to say the least.
The general hunter gatherer rule is 30 kms.
Now do we assume that although the social structure, outside supplies, has collasped the governement still runs things?
Fuel reserves, food stocks and such could be stretched out for weeks if the governement maintains control - the army can provide homeland security ect and martial law would put an end to looters and create a few less mouths to feed. Money will mean very little. Lastly is America still functioning because I believe they - unlike europe - would come to our aid.
Of course if its so bad that government has done what it does best and saved its own fat face while leaving us to suffer then though who live in cities or near the urban spill will be in for a very bad time. Lawlessness would be rife, raping, murder, looting and general destruction would be everywhere and unless you have seen the speed at which a society breaks down you will not believe how quick this happens. Those living in a city would be wisest to feel immediately. Rural communities while possibly welcoming the first few urban refugees will soon close their borders as the trickle becomes a flood. Now as well as looring ect in the cities you will have small wars breaking out all over the countryside. Small armies of starving people attacking villages and farms. Any live stock will be taken - a brief incite into the scale of this destruction can be gleened if we look at the barren lands left in the wake of invading armies of the medievial period - now multiply these ten fold - we would rapidly eat the land clean.
Now the starvation would start and the first winter would see a massive death told - warbands would be on constant campign raiding for food and trying to protect their territory.
Those who survived the winter would sow in the spring, but the war would still rage because people being people we will always want what others have. That sumer would be hard too as all the meat stocks would have been killed in the first year and very few animals would be left.
Then would come the harvest, maybe the first time of plenty in for many months. Those who didnt farm would continue their raiding those who did would fit to defend themselves and their food stocks.
Another winter - more deaths - the population dwindling. Less people means some of the few animals surviving can breed and live into adult hood to breed themselves.
And so it would go on - the population would eventually stablise, in all likely hood we would be back to our pre-roman kingdom/tribal system game and farm stock would grow in numbers and life would slowly settle down into a rythm but gone will be the cars and the machines - some will try to rebuild civilisation - some wont only time will tell if we learnt anything.
Good story eh!!
Anyway conversative figures estimate it would take thirty year minimum for nature to reclaim all we have stolen from her - thirty years for game stocks to return to a huntable level upon which we (or at least a population equal to medievil britian) could sustain ourselves on.
In the interim period it would be rough to say the least.
Kim I'd hope you were right, and I would agree totally with your sentiment except that I really don't believe that everyone feels that way. "Have's" and "have not's" and "I'm all right Jacks" seem to me to be more the way of things in the UK these days.
Do I sound terribly cynical about it? Kim I don't mean any offence to you personally - or to anyone else on this forum. (the very fact that you're on this forum proves you think a little bit "differently") But I think that most of modern UK society would react in the "same ole, same ole" way.
What does everyone else think?
George
Do I sound terribly cynical about it? Kim I don't mean any offence to you personally - or to anyone else on this forum. (the very fact that you're on this forum proves you think a little bit "differently") But I think that most of modern UK society would react in the "same ole, same ole" way.
What does everyone else think?
George
A small point but if we had Gary's TEOCAWKI scenario then we'd probably never be having another industrial revolution: all the resources exploitable by relatively unsophisticated technology (coal, metals and the like) were dug out long ago. In the long term we might not even be able to sustain a medieval technology base: forward to the Paleolithic, as they say.
Paganwolf
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Unfortunately days gone by have done exactly that gone by, the days of the world war's ration books and food shortages and the good old british stiff upper lip and pull together attitude are out of the window im afraid to say as the british population are now becoming a multi cultural and multi racial society where new sets of rules are brought in to play, you cant leave your doors unlocked any more and kids cant play safely in the streets with out being shot at (extreme case but true) inner city violence and gang warfare crime, knife and gun related crime is on the rise ect ect 
so if this hypothetical situation happens its either look after your family or get crushed in the rush at a supermarket for a can of baked beans! As an example the last war scare we had the supermarket i go in in the mornings for my paper had sold out of bottled water and nearly every tin of food on the shelves had gone! and that was just a scare :shock:
so if this hypothetical situation happens its either look after your family or get crushed in the rush at a supermarket for a can of baked beans! As an example the last war scare we had the supermarket i go in in the mornings for my paper had sold out of bottled water and nearly every tin of food on the shelves had gone! and that was just a scare :shock:
M
Metala Cabinet
Guest
Paganwolf said:Unfortunately days gone by have done exactly that gone by, the days of the world war's ration books and food shortages and the good old british stiff upper lip and pull together attitude are out of the window im afraid to say as the british population are now becoming a multi cultural and multi racial society where new sets of rules are brought in to play, you cant leave your doors unlocked any more and kids cant play safely in the streets with out being shot at (extreme case but true) inner city violence and gang warfare crime, knife and gun related crime is on the rise ect ect
How true, how terribly true.
Not Bob said:
That is a distinct possibility. Gary's scenario isn't all that far fetched either.
If you consider what could actually do that, you can see how it will affect everything else. For instance, if oil goes to 100.00 a barrel (costs us $52 per barrel today), what would happen to shipping, manufacture, heat for your homes, etc.? Fuel costs would skyrocket. Some experts here in the states are speculating that when oil hits 80.00 a barrel here in the US, we would be spending in excess of 10.00 per gallon for heating oil and fuel to run everything else in our nation. That could effectively shut down our country in a matter of months.
What if the ability to manufacture electricity was taken from us for a couple of weeks or more? Mind boggling how it would affect us.
Oil - the high cost of or the absence of - represents a true threat to our current way of life. Look at how more than 80% of all the world's transport requires oil in one form of another (and figure goes up to over 98% for long distance travel). The high cost of oil followed by the end of it could have a significant effect on the planet and people.
... as does global climate change, poisoning of our air and water.
... as does global climate change, poisoning of our air and water.
My scenerio (while actually just a story and not meant to contribute to the thread) was based on what happened during the break up of the former Yugoslavia in and around the area of travnik, but I thought I'd leave out the racial groups forming armies and concentration camps. After all Britain would be bad enough without the further problems of Birmingham being a Muslim enclave and south London, from Ilford to mile end being an indian one and with the isle of dogs a concetrantion camp for cockneys and pakistani's.
Its not a TEOCAWKI it is fact - I was there I saw it happen and we may think were safe but no food, no law and no hope would send this country down the same road.
No offence meant but that is reality and if it ever happened. like the people of Bosnia or Rowanda or Nazi Germany ect ect you'd have to deal with it or die.
In many ways the coming global super storm would be better - at least ut would let humanity die with some honour.
And finally to quote Mr Frasier of Dads Army - we all doooooomed!
Its not a TEOCAWKI it is fact - I was there I saw it happen and we may think were safe but no food, no law and no hope would send this country down the same road.
No offence meant but that is reality and if it ever happened. like the people of Bosnia or Rowanda or Nazi Germany ect ect you'd have to deal with it or die.
In many ways the coming global super storm would be better - at least ut would let humanity die with some honour.
And finally to quote Mr Frasier of Dads Army - we all doooooomed!
yeah sorry if my earlier post seems overdramatic
someone once told me "plan for the worst and hope for the best"
lack of food and heating in urban areas are pretty much a given in garys scenario
i guess a mass exodous from towns and cities of very hungry people would result
someone that is literally starving will not be likely to be very happy and if there is a mob of them............. well i wouldnt argue with them
lack of fuel would very quickly cripple modern farming as well
i would like to believe that stiff upper lip would carry us through but law enforcement will very quickly collapse with no communications and no vehicles
the military which has bigger reserves would just take longer to collapse
scary thing is the last thing they are likely to run out of is ammunition but even martial law in a country without available food would eventually break down
mebbe we could all plan to meet up on an island and form our own happy community ?
ack: ack: ack:
Tant
someone once told me "plan for the worst and hope for the best"
lack of food and heating in urban areas are pretty much a given in garys scenario
i guess a mass exodous from towns and cities of very hungry people would result
someone that is literally starving will not be likely to be very happy and if there is a mob of them............. well i wouldnt argue with them
lack of fuel would very quickly cripple modern farming as well
i would like to believe that stiff upper lip would carry us through but law enforcement will very quickly collapse with no communications and no vehicles
the military which has bigger reserves would just take longer to collapse
scary thing is the last thing they are likely to run out of is ammunition but even martial law in a country without available food would eventually break down
mebbe we could all plan to meet up on an island and form our own happy community ?
ack: ack: ack: Tant
If we are assuming that there will be no oil there will actually be a hell of a lot of food out there. With no machinery farmers will only be able to harvest a fraction of their crops. Most would run to seed, and those that survived (probably very few without pesticides and fertilizers) could be put on our hunter gatherer menu.
Rural communities may be able to absorb a large number of townies as unskilled labour.
Rural communities may be able to absorb a large number of townies as unskilled labour.
OK to be controversial - but I suspect I'm right - I think all the nightmare scenarios are totally OTT. I reckon the UK could adjust and be totally self sufficient in food production provided that we still had fuel available to allow efficient (which does not also mean gourmet or the most healthy) modern food production methods to continue.
Farming has improved in efficiency to a huge degree over the last century and I suspect that we are close to self sufficient as things are and off only a fraction of the land area that used to be under cultivation. OK we import lots of exotic products from around the world and can pretty well get anything we want with total disregard to the seasons - but the UK exports food too. If the borders closed, we'd have to adjust our diets but I doubt that many people need starve.
The key issue is whether this came about suddenly and there was no time to adapt or existing practices could not be maintained. In that case as they say any country is only 3 days away from a revolution.
If there was time to adapt, then we could increase the land area under glass - commercial greenhouses are very productive, polytunnels are quick to set up - etc etc and be sorted in a season or two.
Funny thing but as much as I love the outdoors / bushcraft skills, if civilisation got broke, technology is the very first thing I'd turn to to fix it.
Does that make me a heathen or just prove that (like Stuart) I was born with the engineering gene ?):
Chins up ...
Farming has improved in efficiency to a huge degree over the last century and I suspect that we are close to self sufficient as things are and off only a fraction of the land area that used to be under cultivation. OK we import lots of exotic products from around the world and can pretty well get anything we want with total disregard to the seasons - but the UK exports food too. If the borders closed, we'd have to adjust our diets but I doubt that many people need starve.
The key issue is whether this came about suddenly and there was no time to adapt or existing practices could not be maintained. In that case as they say any country is only 3 days away from a revolution.
If there was time to adapt, then we could increase the land area under glass - commercial greenhouses are very productive, polytunnels are quick to set up - etc etc and be sorted in a season or two.
Funny thing but as much as I love the outdoors / bushcraft skills, if civilisation got broke, technology is the very first thing I'd turn to to fix it.
Does that make me a heathen or just prove that (like Stuart) I was born with the engineering gene ?
): Chins up ...
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