How much soil need to survive?

[Alfredo]

Hi,
on the north side of my house I have some 30 square metres of soil. Just for fun ad for "biological" food, we decided to plant a vine, a plum tree, any blueberry. Of course they will not provide others than some fruits for our dessert, but I'm pretty sure that if we grow this little piece of soil intensively (as on the WWII i.e.), we could obtain a 10-15% of our daily food (average, depending of the season).
What do you think. How much soil need a person to survive?
Alfredo



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[Gagnrad]

How much soil need a person to survive?

Dunno. How big's his family?

"Three acres and a cow" perhaps:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_acres_and_a_cow

But in the old days across most of Europe it was a pig rather than a cow that every cottager had. Maybe the cow was in the slogan because of the milk (although I guess a goat would do for that).

I'd think nowadays land is of more interest for providing organic vegetables (and a bit of exercise) to a householder. Growing enough to sell for everything else you need (meat, clothing, transport, water rates, etc., etc.) is a different ballgame.

 

[British Red]

It depends what you mean by "survive". Are you including growing all your own fuel?

 

[rik_uk3]

Here you go Red, I think you'll like this 20 min film

http://www.veoh.com/browse/videos/category/educational/watch/v6963402bfDWt8tb

 

[British Red]

Here you go Red, I think you'll like this 20 min film

http://www.veoh.com/browse/videos/category/educational/watch/v6963402bfDWt8tb

I'll look when I get home - I'm on site on dial up

 

[Gagnrad]

Dunno. How big's his family?
... in the old days across most of Europe it was a pig ... that every cottager had.

Worth quoting this:

In autumn pigs were killed, not all at once, but a few at a time, so that in any village there was a constant relay of fresh meat from September onwards ... (Dorothy Hartley, Food in England)

So presumably rather than trying to salt it all down you let your neighbours have some and then got some back off them when they killed.

It's a useful reminder that life in the past was very much a social affair. The notion of survival, if it's to mean getting along without anyone else, would be relatively modern. Karl Marx apparently remarked that Robinson Crusoe was a liberal individualist fantasy (and lest anyone dismiss that with the thought that they're not a socialist it's worth remarking Marx's awareness of the social nature of life came from his reading of the conservative political philosopher G.W.F. Hegel). Sure, self-reliance is a virtue, but it would be a mistake to think that Robinson could live a totally self-contained existence: he uses tools he salvages from the wreck; he soothes his loneliness by studying his society's religious texts; he applies skills he learnt in society; his very ability to think through complex problems depends on language, which is a social acquisition.

When people fed themselves off land, rather than buying everything in a supermarket, they did so as part of a rural society.

 

[FGYT]

do not atempt this link if not of fast broad band its 25MB

http://www.housegate.net/woodvival/manualistica/The complete Book of Self Sufficiency.pdf

Micheal Guerra is a Guru for growing in a small garden and his book the Edible Container garden has good pointers on gettin a lot out of a small space and his diagram of how he gardens in suburbia is amazing

Charled Dowding's books are worth looking at I did a day course at his place a couple of years ago was very usfull means i only need a hand full of lettuce plants to last months


ATB

Duncna

 

[gregorach]

A standard allotment plot is about 10m x 20m, and you're supposed to just about be able to feed a family of 4 off it if you put it entirely down to tatties, onions and kale. Not the most exciting diet in the world though... Plus I suspect that that's supposed to be supplemented with eggs, meat, bread, lard, and beer. Never forget the nutritional importance of beer!

 

[FGYT]

A standard allotment plot is about 10m x 20m, and you're supposed to just about be able to feed a family of 4 off it if you put it entirely down to tatties, onions and kale. Not the most exciting diet in the world though... Plus I suspect that that's supposed to be supplemented with eggs, meat, bread, lard, and beer. Never forget the nutritional importance of beer!

would ahve been eggs to etc cept most councils removed the right to have chickens on allotments etc

Beer was important was the only scource of clean drinking fluid about for ages tho a lot less potent than the Fizzy rubbish about today

ATB

Duncan

 

[Tadpole]

To do more than just grub a living, I suspect that you would need at least 20 other families with similar Ideals and ideas, and a plot of land for farming of at least 5 acres, and the same of woodland. To live of what only you grow, I’d say it’s a full time job, long hours and winter time hunger + short hard lives. But as a community of like minded people it is more than doable. Back before industrialisation, most villages were 20 houses and with gardens and rotational ridge and furrow farming, most (when left alone) were quite prosperous

 

[TomBartlett]

In 'The Complete Book of Self Sufficiency' by John Seymour he lays out living off one acre. He divides it in half, one for a cow and one for veg but admits that food would have to be bought in for the cow. He also lays out plans for a five acre plot. From just these two scenarios my guess is somewhere between one and five acres would be enough to survive on. I think it's the same book that Duncan provided a link to. It's a great book, well worth a read if you're interested in self-sufficient living.

 

[santaman2000]

In 'The Complete Book of Self Sufficiency' by John Seymour he lays out living off one acre. He divides it in half, one for a cow and one for veg but admits that food would have to be bought in for the cow. He also lays out plans for a five acre plot. From just these two scenarios my guess is somewhere between one and five acres would be enough to survive on. I think it's the same book that Duncan provided a link to. It's a great book, well worth a read if you're interested in self-sufficient living.

I haven't read the book but since he only mentions a single cow I assume it is for milk and associated dairy products. If so you could exchange that cow for a goat (a poor man's cow) and reduce the level of feed and water needed. I suppose another use for a single cow would be as a beast of burden (i.e. the plowing) A goat is capable of this too but obviously not as heavily.

 

[Ogri the trog]

Ah but be mindful,
That goats are expert tree and rock climbers, can scale fence and hedge with impunity and will do so for fun, not just to get at the crops growing in the next field. You can buy them the most expensive nutritional food on the market and they still want to nibble-to-stumps, your finest fruit trees.

Don't ask me how I know!

Ogri the trog

 

[Suffolksteve]

would ahve been eggs to etc cept most councils removed the right to have chickens on allotments etc


Duncan

Hi Duncan,

I could be wrong but when I was looking into this the 1950 allotment act stated that all allotment holders must be allowed to keep chickens and this over ruled any other legislation or rules. I have heard of alot of council put in these rules to then repeal them when people pointed out those rules were illegal.

The research I did was a couple of years ago so can't remember it exactly but wanted to make you aware of it just in case it was relevant for you, hope I haven't come across as some know it all.

Stephen

 

[santaman2000]

I can remember growing up what we had planted for the "kitchen" garden. It wasn't all in a single plot; a half acre here, an acre there, fruit trees scattered about the yard. All told we grew about 4 acres planted in vegetables. That provided enough to MOSTLY feed our family through the year. Mind you that "family" was an extended family of aunts, uncles and grandkids, about 14 in total. We had potatoes, cabbage, corn, tomatoes, lettuce, corn, peas, squash, corn, watermelons, turnips (we eat the greens as well as the roots over here) and did I mention CORN!? The fruit trees included apples, pears, figs, apricots, and nut trees (pecans). Besides eating fresh veg & fruit in season we would freeze most of the excess veg and preserve the excess fruit for winter use. Mind you it took considerably more acreage to provide for the 2 horses used in plowing. They grazed on about 80 acres of mixed grass/forrest land and still needed supplemental feed. Also what sort of land is a consideration. If you keep livestock such as chickens, cows, pigs, goats (in our case horses) then they all need water. A natural pond or stream on-site is best but a good well will suffise if you are willing to take on the watering chore. Pigs eapecially need a wallow.

 

[RonW]

If you really want to eat of this little piece of soil, I'd say "loose the vine". Replace it with a few stocks of green beans, add a few rows of carrots, some red beet.
get some pots for strawberries, maybe even a hanging variety. That goes for tomatoes, too.
Lettice is easy and you can harvest that for a longer time, without killing the plant.

 

[santaman2000]

Ah but be mindful,
That goats are expert tree and rock climbers, can scale fence and hedge with impunity and will do so for fun, not just to get at the crops growing in the next field. You can buy them the most expensive nutritional food on the market and they still want to nibble-to-stumps, your finest fruit trees.

Don't ask me how I know!

Ogri the trog

LOL. Yeah they have their drawbacks.

 

[santaman2000]

If you really want to eat of this little piece of soil, I'd say "loose the vine". Replace it with a few stocks of green beans, add a few rows of carrots, some red beet.
get some pots for strawberries, maybe even a hanging variety. That goes for tomatoes, too.
Lettice is easy and you can harvest that for a longer time, without killing the plant.

I've done potted tomatoes. Mean to try the hanging ones. Never thought of it with strawberries, thanks for the idea.

 

[RonW]

The hanging tomatoes are great. I really recommend the smaller ones. We used a variety called "Tasty Tom"; indeed very tastefull with a rich harvest over several weeks.

Looking at your garden I see the rack in the back. With that you could use the same piece of soil 3x. Top hanging tomatoes, middle hanging strawberries and bottom row lettice and such. On the poles you could hang herbs, like basil, parsly, oregano, etc

 

[WeThePeoplexfbm]

hmm i hellp my dad withc his veggie patch.... we grow a couple bucket loads of cherry and nomal tomatoes ^^