How long could you survive?

[Martyn]

There's a lot of food out there, but a heck of a lot of it's seasonal.
The reckoning is that we survive three weeks without food so long as there's plentiful water.

Could I ? yes, but then I'm a little fat lady these days so am unlikely to starve regardless of how uncomfortable I might find it. My dietary preferences, pretty much vegan, also means a dependance on plant material.
I'd also like to do it at a good season of the year.
Would I do it in the bitter cold of a wet, icy Winter ? Not if there were any way to avoid it.

Fergus the forager has a brilliant site full of wild food recipes and uses.

cheers,
M

You could pick your season Mary, the question really is how long could you keep it up for? Even in harvest time, just the act of having to find and process all your calories on a day to day basis, I think would be a massive task.

 

[udamiano]

When were you thinking of this to be done Martyn, what i mean Winter, Summer, etc. I would be interested, things like a camera would have to be exempt if you wanted photos etc. Shall we say Weekend to weekend. would people be interested if I posted the day-by-day account up? with as you said the diet and methods. let me know your opinions please folks

 

[vizsla]

I was waiting for this thread to apear. Id like to think in my local woodland that i now like the back of my hand from were certain trees are to were to look for edible plants and were the squiral dreys are and were the pigeons roost. I no were to find pretty much everything that the woods has to offer.
I think im good at camp construction given the time im pretty sure i could build a nice livable cabin, iv plenty of practice making my own essentials from natural resources. Iv done plenty of hunting and iv a keen eye for tracing animal locations.
Iv a good positive attitude and im quite happy with my own company i also never give up easily.
iv done a few trips like this with a friend but only ever a couple of nights due to family etc.
So in my limited experiance of my short trips id say i would want to start in spring which would give time to do all the prep for the short nights ahead making the most of the long days to collect as much fire wood as possible cure as much meat as possible, collect nuts fruit. But i think if you were to fail in these preparations for winter you would most likely fail.
In a 8 hour winter day most of that will be taken with routine chores not leaving time for hunting.
So id like to say yes in my choice location starting at my chosen month with my full bushcraft kit.
The main area that id need to improve which ironicly is the most important is medecine, im aware of the sighns of poisoning hyperphermia etc. Im aware of plants whith mild antiseptic values. I can make plasters bandiads slings splints.
But actual medicine iv no idea.
Id like to say tho that if i were droped in the middle of the highlands in winter in open land id most definately fail.
In fact id probly fail most places im just kidding myself realy i struggle to tell a birch tree from a palm tree

 

[luckylee]

Oh I know you would all survive a week. You'd survive a week if you ate nothing at all. But I think it would be exceptionally lean. I think it would be an interesting exercise as you would go in healthy with lots of energy and develop a real feeling for how many calories are available from the woods. If picking are lean in that first week, it's only going to get worse. The coast would be much easier and obviously if it was about forced survival, then anything goes, but that is not the question. So the consensus that a week would be doable, but mainly because you'd be living off your fat reserves, biut anything longer would start to get pretty rough?

ill second that by the second week, it gets horrible i done a hunger protest when i was younger, and by the second week, the pain in your stomach is ridiculous, you feel like eating your own fingers, and thats just lying there, trying to keep warm, and all the other things associated with cold just does not bear thinking about.

 

[rik_uk3]

A coastal location would certainly make it easier.

Depends if you could catch fish everyday

From Antiquity, an archaeological journal.

"Against the grain? A response to Milner et al. (2004)

Introduction

A recent publication in this journal (Milner et al. 2004) called into question the increasing body of human stable isotopic data showing a rapid diet shift away from marine resources associated with the beginning of the Neolithic in parts of north-western Europe, particularly in Britain and Denmark. While we very much welcome informed and positive debate on this issue, we feel we must respond to this specific paper as it is problematic at a number of levels.

Stable carbon and nitrogen isotope analysis of human bone is beginning to challenge what we would argue is the current orthodoxy of a gradual dietary transition between the Mesolithic and Neolithic. Indeed, the stable isotope data support some elements of a previous orthodoxy, which saw the advent of the Neolithic as a 'revolution'. This is not to say that all elements are supported by the isotopic data; the question of the interactions between any incomers and indigenous people, for example, is still very much a live issue. And it is still far from clear exactly how the shift occurred, how rapid it was in human terms (in generations rather than radiocarbon years), and why it occurred. And there is still the possibility of regional and supra-regional variation to be addressed fully. But the implications of the stable isotope data are beginning to be acknowledged and addressed (e.g. Thomas 2003). This is an important independent line of evidence, and has been available since the early 1980s (Tauber 1981a), yet until recently little consideration has been given to the picture of a very rapid and significant shift in diet across the Mesolithic-Neolithic transition. Instead, it is during this very period that the view of the transition as a long, drawn-out process began to emerge and dominate discussion (Thomas 1991).

It is in this context that criticisms made of the isotopic data, particularly by Milner et al. (2004) need to be addressed. Their dismissal of the isotopic evidence for a rapid and significant transition, while to some extent encouraging debate, also prematurely attempts to close it. Milner et al. (2004) present their critique along three main fronts (see also Bailey & Milner 2002). Firstly, they contend that the zooarchaeological and archaeological evidence for diet is at odds with the stable isotope data; secondly, they point to problems of sample size and bias in the human skeletons used for analysis; and thirdly, they argue that there are problems with the interpretation of stable isotope data. We address each of these concerns in turn.

The (zoo)archaeological data

Milner et al. (2004) make much of the zooarchaeological evidence for the continued use of marine resources in the Neolithic, taking examples mainly from Denmark but also from Britain and Ireland. They argue that the presence of the remains of marine foods (especially shellfish) in Neolithic contexts, and the occurrence of apparent seal-hunting stations and of fish traps, somehow counters any argument of a large-scale dietary shift at the start of the Neolithic. Despite the numerous problems and biases with the use of zooarchaeological data, they present this evidence as if it were some sort of 'spoiler'; that finding any evidence, however slight, of any Neolithic person consuming marine foods undermines the isotopic data of a large scale shift. Simply put, the continued occasional use of marine resources in the Neolithic is not at all incompatible with the isotope data, but is largely irrelevant in the overall question of large-scale dietary shifts. The isotopic evidence presents a long-term measure of lifetime diets, and clearly shows a significant change in human diet between the Mesolithic and the Neolithic. Remains of fish and shellfish recovered from archaeological sites are the remains of individual meals, but are not indicative of the overall diet of a human population. As Geoff Bailey himself has elegantly argued (Bailey 1975, 1978), shells are highly visible archaeologically due to their preservational properties, but misleading in terms of determining diet composition, as they are nutritionally poor. Bailey (1978) writes that:
'The ease with which molluscs can be over-rated as a source of food will be swiftly appreciated from the fact that approximately 700 oysters would be needed to supply enough kilocalories for one person for one day, if no other food were eaten, or 1400 cockles, or 400 limpets, to name the species most often found in European middens. I have estimated that approximately 52,267 oysters would be required to supply the calorific equivalent of a single red deer carcase, 156,800 cockles, or 31,360 limpets, figures which may help to place in proper nutritional perspective the vast numbers of shells recorded archaeologically.' (Bailey 1978: 39, emphasis ours) Therefore, the occasional Neolithic shell midden is in itself hardly indicative of a continued marine-based economy in this period. The nature of the exploitation may have been very different, for example, from a central aspect of subsistence in the Mesolithic to one more peripheral in the Neolithic.

In addition, it should be emphasised that, aside from these shell middens and special purpose sites, there are actually very few Neolithic faunal assemblages known from Denmark. Bone survival is poor away from the shell middens, but where mammalian fauna is preserved from the Early Neolithic, it is dominated by domestic fauna (see Fischer 2002 for a recent review). Thus Milner et al.'s (2004) discussion touches upon only one aspect of the Neolithic economy, and likely a very limited one.
In the context of Britain, where much of our own research on this issue has been focused (i.e. Richards & Hedges 1999; Richards et al. 2003a; Schulting & Richards 2002a, b), Milner et al. (2004) do agree that there is substantially less evidence for marine exploitation in the Neolithic. They suggest that this is partly because of inundation of coastal sites by rising sea levels. However, sea levels were quite close to their present position by 4000 cal BC (the generally accepted data for the appearance of Neolithic material culture in the UK), so that this argument holds far less relevance than it does for the Mesolithic period, when it is very much a factor (Schulting & Richards 2002a, b). Milner et al. point to shell middens of Neolithic date along the Firth of Forth in south-east Scotland and along the coast of Co. Sligo, western Ireland, and to evidence for fishing from Neolithic Orkney. The shell middens are subject to the same issues already raised above--their simple presence, while certainly interesting and worthy of further investigation--says little about their quantitative importance in long-term diet. The Forth and Sligo middens are notable for the absence of much in the way of cultural material, or indeed …"

A now 'silent' member here asked Ray Mears (on the Journeyman course) if he (Ray) could survive a year on his own for a year in the UK solely living off the land, his answer was "It would be extremely difficult"

I've got the theory, done some of the practical but in reality you'd starve to death on your own over a year pretty much anywhere in the UK, if you survived you sure as heck would be a lot leaner and certainly not fitter.

 

[toilet digger]

it would certainly seem like invertabrates would be the way to go, in terms of calorific expenditure and reward.
although i'd have to be STARVING to eat woodlice, dirty coprophagic buggers

 

[luckylee]

it would certainly seem like invertabrates would be the way to go, in terms of calorific expenditure and reward.
although i'd have to be STARVING to eat woodlice, dirty coprophagic buggers

they are lovely mate. they taste a bit like prawns to be honest, the one that i didn't like way locust i was told before i ate them that they tasted a bit like burnt toast, well mine and his taste buds were totally different, it did not taste like burnt toast to me, cant really say what it tasted like, as i have never tried anything like it, but it made me stomach wrench.

 

[vizsla]

In reality its when something unforseen happens a injury maybe or most likely food poisening or nasties from water the one time you get a bit lazy filtering, something like even a cold or flue can soon put you in a position were your unable to hunt fish collect fire wood and even maintain the fire. Before you know it your cold hungary have no energy ill and the possibily of walking 50 miles for help is not likely and its soon a downward spirral.
A good film to show this based on a true story is into the wild he lives hunts and survives very well but then one lack of judgement when he was hungary he eats something he shouldnt even with the help of a plant id book as he was soon in a position were going for help wasnt possible

 

[udamiano]

A now 'silent' member here asked Ray Mears (on the Journeyman course) if he (Ray) could survive a year on his own for a year in the UK solely living off the land, his answer was "It would be extremely difficult"

I've got the theory, done some of the practical but in reality you'd starve to death on your own over a year pretty much anywhere in the UK, if you survived you sure as heck would be a lot leaner and certainly not fitter.

I agree, the resources you would need, would be quickly depleted in any area you choose, it would be a matter of constantly moving to better areas, which for the single person would use vast amount of energy, especially if had to carry supplies. all of which would be severely increased during the winter months. While I've read that a few people would survive 'eating bugs, and snails' these would only keep you alive for a few days extra, and while you might 'survive' to sustain you are gong to need a large amount of protein daily to give you the calories, and not every day would something jump into your trap or net. Again if we are talking about Arctic conditions then, read R.Fiennes account, especially the bit when they are making 'Cupa-soups' using Butter instead of water :yikes::yikes: and their bodies were still consuming themselves. I think the idea of total hunter-gatherer lifestyle as a single person in the UK would be extremely difficult to say the least.

Week -yes
Month- possible
2-3 months - Difficult put possible depending on location and time of year

any longer -extremely difficult even with planing

 

[toilet digger]

they are lovely mate. they taste a bit like prawns to be honest, the one that i didn't like way locust i was told before i ate them that they tasted a bit like burnt toast, well mine and his taste buds were totally different, it did not taste like burnt toast to me, cant really say what it tasted like, as i have never tried anything like it, but it made me stomach wrench.

but they eat POO!!!!

locusts i've had and they arent bad, raw they taste like runny egg with a crunchy exterior..........mmmm crunchy

 

[mountainm]

Depends if you could catch fish everyday...

Wasn't really talking about fish, more seaweed, shrimp, limpets, mussels, razor clams, crabs etc.

 

[nuggets]

Does surviving on eating sheep count ??

 

[Biker]

Does surviving on eating sheep count ??

If you can eat a kebab and survive you get my vote.

 

[toilet digger]

Wasn't really talking about fish, more seaweed, shrimp, limpets, mussels, razor clams, crabs etc.

i agree, readily available, easily obtained and with minimul processing to render edible. would more than adequately sustain and at the same time giving you ample time to costruct fish traps and lay an extensive network of snares and deadfalls (legality aside).
as has already been mentioned. the coastal margin and deciduous woodland are the most productive of environs that we have in our fair isle and contrary to what some believe, its possible to sustain oneself indefinately, barring injury or illness that is.

regards jamie.

 

[udamiano]

If you can eat a kebab and survive you get my vote.

Try this! Kebab is for the weak lol

http://blog.23x.net/5/what-is-a-munchy-box.html

Just keep a defibrillator next you as you do, and wear headphones to block the sound your arteries make

 

[luckylee]

I agree, the resources you would need, would be quickly depleted in any area you choose, it would be a matter of constantly moving to better areas, which for the single person would use vast amount of energy, especially if had to carry supplies. all of which would be severely increased during the winter months. While I've read that a few people would survive 'eating bugs, and snails' these would only keep you alive for a few days extra, and while you might 'survive' to sustain you are gong to need a large amount of protein daily to give you the calories, and not every day would something jump into your trap or net. Again if we are talking about Arctic conditions then, read R.Fiennes account, especially the bit when they are making 'Cupa-soups' using Butter instead of water :yikes::yikes: and their bodies were still consuming themselves. I think the idea of total hunter-gatherer lifestyle as a single person in the UK would be extremely difficult to say the least.

Week -yes
Month- possible
2-3 months - Difficult put possible depending on location and time of year

any longer -extremely difficult even with planing

i'm with you on that mate.

 

[Martyn]

When were you thinking of this to be done Martyn, what i mean Winter, Summer, etc. I would be interested, things like a camera would have to be exempt if you wanted photos etc. Shall we say Weekend to weekend. would people be interested if I posted the day-by-day account up? with as you said the diet and methods. let me know your opinions please folks

Wow, if you're up for it, I'd be fascinated to hear how you get on. You know we can all pitch a tarp, make fire, find wood and water, but I think food is the biggest challenge by miles. OK if you are up for it, tyhen the idea would be to replicate an inland foragers diet, so no poaching farm animals, no taking of farmed foods, grains, root vegetables etc, no scrumping orchards, and no coastal foraging, just a diet of whatever flora and fauna you can find growing wild in your woods. Also, no firearms or projectile weapons (except a catapult) and no fishing rods. If you can make it with a knife, then crack on, but you cant take it in with you - excerpt a catapult. The other condition is that you must carry everything you plan to use in a rucksack and getting to your location should involve a short hike of at least mile or so.

Please take pictures and a video diary would be fantastic. I'd love to see a real world example of this - even if your time was lean, think of how much could be learned?

Your health and safety is paramount though, please take a mobile phone and if you are struggling, please bail out.

Oh and you can pick whatever week in the year you want - your choice.

Remember, you cant take food with you, not even a tic-tac, so have a big breakfast on the morning you start.

 

[Martyn]

i agree, readily available, easily obtained and with minimul processing to render edible. would more than adequately sustain and at the same time giving you ample time to costruct fish traps and lay an extensive network of snares and deadfalls (legality aside).
as has already been mentioned. the coastal margin and deciduous woodland are the most productive of environs that we have in our fair isle and contrary to what some believe, its possible to sustain oneself indefinately, barring injury or illness that is.

regards jamie.

Only problem is that the coast isn't the woods.

 

[toilet digger]

Only problem is that the coast isn't the woods.

staffordshire is land locked isn't it?
fortunately northumberland has plenty of both and often adjacent to each other. truly the promised land!

 

[cbr6fs]

Good question.

Personally i think surviving in any environment for a long period of time on your own is extremely tough to the point of being impossible for the vast vast majority of people, even people in the know.

The amount of energy you need to expend on a daily basis to eat enough calories is extremely high.
The longer you live in one spot (assuming you've not taken to farming) the harder it is to find food, so you'd have to stray further and further from base.
Then there is carrying a daily water supply back to camp, harvesting enough wood to clean said water.

If you fell ill and there was no one else there to support you then you go downhill very very quickly.
Something as little as a sprained ankle often does mean a slow death.

Then there are virus's, cuts going bad, bacteria causing upset tummies etc etc.


There are obviously a few examples over the years of people alone surviving for long periods, but i honestly think only as little as 1% of us lot could survive 100% on our own for say 6 months.

But there are things to make life easier.
Like say for example if you had a gun and plenty of ammunition to hunt with, if say your camp spot was in a place that fish passed or came to to spawn, if winters and summers were mild it would help considerably, having access to salt would make a MASSIVE difference as you then have aneasy way to keep food, if you knew how to smoke food as well these 2 things might well mean you'd have enough food stocked up to see you through illness times.

Biggest hurdle would be psychologically.
Might sound great being alone for a length of time, but in reality very very few people have the mental strength to be alone for vast amounts of time.
On a good day with plenty of calories ingested you might be fine, but throw in say 3 days of non stop rain while you have a cold and low food supply and many just give up.
Even things we take for granted like say repairing a shelter will seem insurmountable at these dark times.

Personally i wouldn't want to be away from my kids, family and loved ones for more than 2 weeks, so i'd have to say 2 weeks would be my limit.
Probably be able to survive longer, but i much prefer to live life rather than just survive it.