Holistic Homestead Energy Systems.

[Janne]

I am sure somebody has said it already, but if you have a che@p supply of wood, and it is allowed, then it is not a bad thing 5o get a wood burning system.

I had a such system with additional electric heating once.
Electrics kicked in when the Central heating water went below a certain temperature.

In my current house in Northern Norway we have a heat exchanger in one spot downstairs with additional underfloor heating in both bathrooms.

If the temperature goes cold and the heat exchanger can not warm the whole house, to prevent pipes and toilets freezing, the underfloor heating kicks in.

 

[TeeDee]

I am sure somebody has said it already, but if you have a che@p supply of wood, and it is allowed, then it is not a bad thing 5o get a wood burning system.

I had a such system with additional electric heating once.
Electrics kicked in when the Central heating water went below a certain temperature.

In my current house in Northern Norway we have a heat exchanger in one spot downstairs with additional underfloor heating in both bathrooms.

If the temperature goes cold and the heat exchanger can not warm the whole house, to prevent pipes and toilets freezing, the underfloor heating kicks in.

I'll be growing some quick growing willow on the property edges by the River and will be coppicing it on a semi regular process. It is rural around here anywhere and I may be able to score some firewood as I'm handy with a Chainsaw.

 

[Tengu]

Your system sounds great Janne, but rather expensive to set up.

 

[Janne]

If you mean the old one, wood burning ‘central furnace’ and electric combination, it was about 1/3 more than a pure wood burning ‘central furnace’.
All pipes for the water were already installed, only electric had to be extended.
The house had a coal and wood fired furnace before.
The expensive part was the Tulikivi woodburner.

The last ones, with the heat exchanger and underfloor heating, is cheap.
The woodburner, a standard cast Iron Jøtul.

One heat exchanger plus two units ‘off the shelf’ standard electric underfloor heating pads/mats.

The tricky bit was to decide the place the heat exchanger needed to be, for the most efficient function together with the underfloor heating.
The company that designed the house did that.

Another cost saving feature I will have is a direct hot water system.
You can install the same, Stiebel Eltron makes them. No waste of electricity keeping a tank full of water hot when you do not need it. Unlimited hot water when you do.
Simple installing. Need 50-100 Amp supply, depending on size.
Have it here, lots of people do. A 50 Amp size.

Frees up space too!

BUT, the by far best and cheapest cost saving feature is the insulation. That will repay itself rapidly.
Every environmental prophet talks about how to produce energy in the most e. friendly way. But they seem to forget that by insulating our houses heavily, you will cut down the need for heating. Be it wood, gas or electricity.


Our biggest concern is the water pipes freezing and splitting, and the flooding after.

So we install a simple manual valve on the incoming mains line. Plus a tap on the house side of the valve, to empty the water lines inside the house.

We have done that on every house we have lived in, Sweden, Norway and UK.

A house should be as cheap to run as possible.


My main advice to TeeDee would be: Insulate. Rockwool/ glassfiber wool, 10-15 cm in the walls, 30-50 cm above the ceiling. The floor slab insulated too, thickness depends on slab design and material

 

[woodspirits]

Interesting thread, I have installed a few rainwater systems using crates holding tanks and pumps of various sizes to recycle rain and grey water, they seem to work well. But have you also considered a geothermal heating system? I installed one of these to a house a while back. This clip I found will explain it better than I could.

 

[TeeDee]

Interesting thread, I have installed a few rainwater systems using crates holding tanks and pumps of various sizes to recycle rain and grey water, they seem to work well. But have you also considered a geothermal heating system? I installed one of these to a house a while back. This clip I found will explain it better than I could.

I have looked very briefly at Ground Heat Pumps before but happily admit I know nothing of the technology or more importantly the Space ( as in the footprint the ground Coil ) may take up.

Interesting stuff however.

 

[Janne]

Quite expensive to install. We looked into it.

It works on the same principle as a heat pump. Quite ingenious. I do not understand how they work though!

I hope it is ok adding a clip from YouTube?

 

[slowworm]

Another cost saving feature I will have is a direct hot water system.

I'm in a similar position to TeeDee and I'm looking to go down the route of separate wood burner and electric heating for the rest. That will be some electric room heaters and an electric direct hot water system. (A hot water cylinder may be added if we get round to generating our own electricity).

I've had modern boilers before and I'm not convinced they would be cheaper to run if you factor in service and repair costs along with fuel. We're also in an area prone to power cuts so I don't want to rely on an oil boiler for example which will not work if we have a power cut. At least a stand alone wood burner can be used all the time.

The problem with a wood burner is the amount of fuel it uses. I expect we'll need 10 cubic meters of wood a year and although we can cut this from our own woodland the effort required to process it, especially extracting the wood, is very time consuming.

The other issue is storing the wood, this winter for example it has been very wet so our seasoned firewood is getting damper as the winter goes on. Ideally I need to make a decent wood store that holds at least 20 cubic meters of wood.

 

[GuestD]

I wonder how much of a houses day to day 'needs' and mod cons can be implemented on a low-draw 12v system?

I think differentiating between needs and "must haves" would answer that one. After moving into a modern home, our quarterly combined gas and electric bills are + or - £100. The most recent bill from October to end December was £108, and most of that will be heat/hot water and cooking. Still can't be bothered with a television, but I've never bothered to see how much they draw.

 

[TeeDee]

I've had modern boilers before and I'm not convinced they would be cheaper to run if you factor in service and repair costs along with fuel. We're also in an area prone to power cuts so I don't want to rely on an oil boiler for example which will not work if we have a power cut. At least a stand alone wood burner can be used all the time.

.

How difficult would it be to tie a small Generator in to kick in to provide a secondary electrical circuit in times of a power down situation?

 

[GuestD]

How difficult would it be to tie a small Generator in to kick in to provide a secondary electrical circuit in times of a power down situation?

Some old school technology info,

http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/ListerData/SOMMenu1.htm

 

[Janne]

How difficult would it be to tie a small Generator in to kick in to provide a secondary electrical circuit in times of a power down situation?

Today - easy. Most emerg. generators are basically 'plug and play'. Installed easily by an electrician.
Many of us here have them.
Be aware of the power output. The really small ones are not so useful, imo. You want to be able to power your fridge and your freezer(s).

If you get one, check how long the longest power outtage has been the last few years. Then calculate how much fuel the gen uses, so you have enough for the possible duration.

Also, remember, a freezer is frozen for approx 24 hours if kept closed.

We chose not to get one . We have a couple battery LED lamps. and can cook on my Trangia. Or gas BBQ.
In case of a looong power outtage ( hurricane destruction) some frozen stuff in the freezers will not be so important.

 

[slowworm]

It's not just starting automatically, it's also ensuring you isolate your supply so you don't electrocute any one working on the line I gather.

Sizing the generator output is also tricky as many electrical devices draw a much larger current on start up.

I would also be careful of modern electrics, I know PCs often require a pure sign wave inverter, which adds a large amount to the cost of a generator, but more and more modern electrical goods seem to have computers in them. Would a central heating controller require a pure sign wave supply for example.

I did briefly look at the Tesla powerwall as a solution but the expense put me off. I'm hoping some other modern battery back up and storage devices come along in the next few years.

 

[GuestD]

It's not just starting automatically, it's also ensuring you isolate your supply so you don't electrocute any one working on the line I gather.

Sizing the generator output is also tricky as many electrical devices draw a much larger current on start up.

I would also be careful of modern electrics, I know PCs often require a pure sign wave inverter, which adds a large amount to the cost of a generator, but more and more modern electrical goods seem to have computers in them. Would a central heating controller require a pure sign wave supply for example.

I did briefly look at the Tesla powerwall as a solution but the expense put me off. I'm hoping some other modern battery back up and storage devices come along in the next few years.

you can buy stabilizers to put in line with standard generators to protect appliances from damage.

 

[TLM]

In upsidedownunders they have developed a Vanadium redox battery which has the somewhat unique feature that capacity can easily be added by using a larger container. Might be commercially available.

 

[slowworm]

you can buy stabilizers to put in line with standard generators to protect appliances from damage.

Could you give an example of one so I know what to look for please? We have rather a dodgy mains supply and something like that may be useful for us.

 

[GuestD]

Could you give an example of one so I know what to look for please? We have rather a dodgy mains supply and something like that may be useful for us.

What is dodgy about it ?

If it's for mains application, this sort of thing,

https://uk.rs-online.com/mobile/p/power-conditioners/5489385/


I used to have a computer specific "controler" which also had a inverter/battery backup, but it was bought 20+ years ago, and I have since given it away since getting a rechargeable tablet. Generators are a bit different. You get what you pay for. If you're going to be using computers etc, then look for an inverter generator. It's always a good idea to look for something around 50% greater supply than your demand.

 

[slowworm]

What is dodgy about it ?

If it's for mains application, this sort of thing,

https://uk.rs-online.com/mobile/p/power-conditioners/5489385/

Thanks. Our power fluctuates a lot. We used one of those plug in meters that monitors power consumption (so not the most accurate thing) but our voltage ranged by more that allowed amount. I'm sure it went over the 255 volts during summers days for example and we often get dimmed lights. Edit to add and when we turn on something that draws a lot of power this also can dim lights.

You link looks like the sort of thing we may need although I'd ideally like something for the whole house.

 

[Janne]

Our power can fluctuate too. Both quick sharp spikes plus more ‘softer and longer’ ones.
One burned out our X-ray unit. £££.
We installed a new fuse box with an inbuilt ‘something’ that will prevent these long and slow voltage increases.

I think the electricity suppliers should deliver quality power after 120 years plus of business......

 

[TeeDee]

.

I did briefly look at the Tesla powerwall as a solution but the expense put me off. I'm hoping some other modern battery back up and storage devices come along in the next few years.

I do think its not just the generation of power but the capacity to store it long term to draw down , so I share the pain regarding Tesla Powerwall , tempting.....but not at that price!!!

Surely there must be reliable and established companies out there who want a piece of the Domestic Battery market that produce some similar products.