Have women evolved so much?

[Wayland]

I have been reading David Wescott's book "Camping in the old style" which is a fascinating read by the way.

It's littered with lovely quotes from some of the old masters.

This one caught my eye for some reason.

I have once or twice alluded to ladies walking and camping. It is thoroughly practical for them to do so. They must have a wagon and do none of the heavy work; their gowns must not reach quite to the ground, and all of their clothing must be free and easy. Of course, there must be gentlemen in the party; and it may save annoyance to have at least one of the ladies well-nigh “middle-aged.”

John Gould, 1877

Have women really evolved that much since then....

......

 

[Retired Member southey]

Good sage advice imo, rules to live by. if you'd like to see documentary evidence of how women should dress while on the trail. may I suggest the biopic of Dr Quinn medicen woman, when she is dressed to visit the reservation, she looks very free and easy.

 

[Toddy]

Wayland it was the corsets. Take them off and you can breathe, and you can bend properly. If a woman did so though, she became a loose woman
Lightweight stays and the older style pair of bodies (which became the bodice that is seen on many European costumes) made a heck of a difference

The middle aged lady bit is simply that the lady in question is more likely to have had children and knows damned fine that you don't need the blasted corset cinched down to under 18" to be feminine; she also is less likely to be a simpering idiot around men and perfectly capable of wielding a frying pan, an axe, a rifle or a skinning knife. Back then though, middle aged meant any woman over thirty.
Different times, young women now are every bit as capable as their male counterparts simply because they're encouraged to be all they can be too.

Personally, I'm delighted if someone else gets the firewood in though I don't mind hard graft.

cheers,
M

 

[Retired Member southey]

I think it has also changed from the women pushing against an expectation of femmininty(sp) at all time, to now almost being expected to be of a more forthright disposition, to have the frontere attitude simply because there is a perceved(although in places very real) constant battle for equality.

 

[maddave]

I remember seeing this a while ago... Made me chuckle

 

[Wayland]

And that was just 55 years ago... How times change.

 

[pango]

Dangerous territory, Wayland. You're just trying to get me barred!

These are Victorian/Edwardian middle class male orientated values, Wayland, and the real world was probably a stark contrast. I think Mr Wescott might have been in for a shock had he ever ran into the daughter of a farmer, miner or fisherman. The Fisher lassies would have gutted him and hung him in a smoke-house!

I well remember some of "The Ladies" who climbed in Glencoe in the 70's though. The words from the wise was never to make the mistake of thinking you'd profit from doing one the favour of taking her climbing with you. I've seen the sheepish expressions of those who did, and some never dared show their manly faces again!

There was one really bonny wee slip of thing who was studying medicine in Edinburgh. My mate thought he'd try the safe hand of plying her with drink. He claimed he couldn't remember anything but I know he woke up skint, in a ditch covered in midgie bites and that she walked back to her own tent chatting away to one of her pals.

There was one condescending sparkle toothed, Porche driving super-hero type -who had all the latest kit but no-one ever actually saw climbing.- who ignored advice that he was playing with fire only minutes before the above really bonny wee slip of a thing kicked the chair from under him and took a hold of him by the throat.
He was never seen again either in the Clachaig or Kingshouse.

Margaret Stewart, "Midge" of Alistair Borthwick's Always a Little Further was certainly not cut from the same cloth as Mr Wescott's Ladies. Sadly taken in the prime of life by the wartime tuberculosis epidemic, Midge most certainly represents fortitude, resilience, determination and common sense amongst the Machismo world of adventure and derring-do of 1930's working class climbing history. Nobody would have said she was just a "lassie", at least not to her face!

Cheers mate.

ps; Damn, I missed a couple of posts while typing. Absolutely agree, Toddy. I love it when "The Girlies" head off with an axe and saw!
MadDave, I'm giving that article to my wife. On second thoughts, I might just post it to her the day before I head out for the hill. I'm no that daft!

 

[MartiniDave]

What about Bushcraft Betty?

 

[pango]

What about Bushcraft Betty?

What, the loose clothing? Can someone please confirm she's a figment of Biker's twisted imagination and high talent for pen-work!
I mean surely it's only in a chilly breeze that those..... naw... This is a serious discussion!

 

[British Red]

I find the idea that there is a "type" of woman for each era absurd. There are still women around who actually see marriage as important and don't feel the need to run down the men in their lives in public - the same as there are still men around who think the woman in their life is the most important thing.

I don't quite get why many people its funny to denigrate their spouse in public (or private come to that) - just strikes me as rude and nasty. Whilst there may have been extremes, the old ways of loving, respecting and cherishing your spouse, and finding ways to please them, seems better than modern snideness to my eyes

 

[pango]

I agree with you, British Red, but the distance, hypocrisy and coldness of Victorian/Edwardian "Values" and what was perceived as decent or appropriate behaviour for "Ladies" doesn't amount to a society of loving relationships. Rather a society of emotionless tedium and impotence.

The fact that many upper middle class women were conditioned to be empty-headed, weak, vertiginous creatures who could pass out if they missed a stitch, only to be wedded off by their loving parents as part of a business deal, doesn't mean they were all happy about it. The ones who broke the mould more often than not also broke all family connections.

The dogma of traditional British family values is based upon an upper middle class myth!

The infant mortality rate amongst the Mill Lassies of Dundee was 51% in 1910, while their employers concerned themselves with decency!
In the words of Mary Brooksbank...

O, dear me, the mill is running fast
And we poor shifters canna get nae rest
Shifting bobbins coarse and fine
They fairly make you work for your ten and nine

O, dear me, I wish this day were done
Running up and doon the Pass is nae fun
Shiftin', piecin', spinning warp, weft and twine
To feed and clothe ma bairnie offa ten and nine

O, dear me, the world is ill-divided
Them that works the hardest are the least provided
But I maun bide contented, dark days or fine
There's no much pleasure living offa ten and nine

 

[Whittler Kev]

I remember seeing this a while ago... Made me chuckle

My grandmothers sister lived by this . She even got his bike out and helped him get on it . She then stood and waited him to turn the corner before she went back in - rain or shine. She was always waiting in the same place at night to take his bike and bag, take off his jacket and boots, so she could put his slippers on and give him his pipe!!!! When I got married ...cripes, its 29 years ago, she told SWMBO she needed to do the same. She must have been a trifle deaf that day

 

[Toddy]

To quote a friend, supposedly happily married for over 35 years, if her public personna and behaviour regarding her husband were to be believed.........."No one knows what goes on behind closed doors and drawn curtains."

It's not disrespect to refer to one's partner in gently joking terms Banter, the give and take of normal social interaction, is as much a part of affection and constancy as the always listening to him first scenario
Hypocrisy can take many forms.

My Grandmother was an Edwardian lady and she really was ladylike in her life and values, but she was also the most down to Earth, practical and loving (and well loved) woman I've ever met. My Grandfather would have sent for the Doctor if she'd started behaving like thon Stepford wife

Himself has just reminded me that it's getting on for dinner time and am I cooking, or is he ?

M

 

[locum76]

LADIES! Know your place.

 

[John Fenna]

I have just got home from work (Mencap support worker) and the little wife has fetched me a cool glass of Elderflower cordial then got straight into cooking my dinner while I deal with my mail (and visit here)......
God love her - she is the best thing in my life and I would be lost without her!
Not only does she cook, clean, garden and do all my typing but she is a delight to the eye as well!
She also has a job that pays more than any of mine (part time now as she is semi-retired) but she keeps the local church and the local am-dram on the rails, loooks after her mother (who lives near-by but should realy be in a care home) and is the most generous person I know.
But - if she ever felt I - or anyone else - was taking advantage and not treating her as a fully independant thinking individual with her own mind....stand by for fireworks!
I fell on my feet when I found this one...and no she does not have an unattached sister!

 

[locum76]

I come from a long line of ancestors where everyone worked. The men pushed the plough and did the poaching, the women tended the fire, cooked and had babies. Everyone did the gardening. The women would have been great campers had it occurred to them to do so. Back then they'd probably have laughed if you described camping/ bushcrafting to them. To go camping would have been a bit of a busmans/ busladies holiday. More likely they'd have gone for a jaunt to Loch Katrine or somewhere for a trip on a steamer.

 

[sam_acw]

It's also worth remembering that for some being a housewife was/is a true vocation. My grandmother has stories of being told out of the blue that 20 people were coming round for a meal in a few hours and she had to get a meal ready for them - to her it was her profession to be able to do things like that.
When my dad went to stay with my mother's grandmother (born around 1900) he came back from a day at the beach to find she had turned all the collars and cuffs on his shirts and starched them all.

 

[John Fenna]

Women have not so much evolved as adapted to each and every situation that they find themselves in - like the best of all creatures (which they are) they adapt to survive in their found environment. The best excel in their role...whatever it is!
Darned versatile creatures, women, able to multi-task as well!
They rather put us men in our places as the secondary human species!
However - I am the boss in my house and SWMBO lets me say so in public (but I know my place realy)!

 

[Chopper]

I find the idea that there is a "type" of woman for each era absurd. There are still women around who actually see marriage as important and don't feel the need to run down the men in their lives in public - the same as there are still men around who think the woman in their life is the most important thing.

I don't quite get why many people its funny to denigrate their spouse in public (or private come to that) - just strikes me as rude and nasty. Whilst there may have been extremes, the old ways of loving, respecting and cherishing your spouse, and finding ways to please them, seems better than modern snideness to my eyes

Was SWMBO looking while you typed this?

 

[forestwalker]

Well, Wescott is not the original author of ther quote, he just compiled nuggets from the old manuals. As to the view of what a woman could and could not do, one quick look at history would dispell any notion that women is incapable. On average less upper body strength than men, but that is about the only advantage we have.

OTOH, when God got the bottom of his "goodie bag" we men were too quick speaking up... ;-)