Hartmanns solution and canulars

[den]

Cheers Bogflogger

Funny game this. So zinc oxide tape is out. Can’t say I have seen it in the shops for years. Used to be great stuff for taping your feet up before a long long walk before I realised a good pair of boots done the same trick lol.


So has any WGL/ML/MIA/MIC been sued for giving sun cream? Or do you know of any instances where sun cream has given someone an allergic reaction?

Most people I know who work in this environment are fully aware about not giving any medication of any kind and to work only within the remit of your FA qualification, but this don’t stop them giving out the sun cream up the mountains if it is a scorcher. I suppose you can state in the parental informed consent that if they do not bring a hat and sun protection that they will not be allowed on the trip.
Cheer
Den

 

[pibbleb]

Dont' talk to me about sun cream!!!! stay away from Garnier Kids SPF 30. My 3 year old was covered in it and due to a reaction now has to be covered in Hydrocortissone Cream Which is a steroid I believe, Oilatum Cream for eczema twice aday and take a bath in Oilatum bath emollient every other day. Oh and he's itched his buttocks so hard that he has scratched the skin off and bled.

If this had been put on by a carer I certainly wouldn't have sued but I would have been well p*ssed!

Pib

 

[bogflogger]

The way to go with Sunscreen, Paracetamol, Perscription drugs, etc, is to ensure that these are provided by Parents/Guardians, and are then Self administered by the Young Person, under adult supervision.

The Safest bet, is to have all Meds for each client (with the exception of inhalers/pen injectors) in Named, indivdual ziplock bags, with a copy of their Med details/Parental consent form, and for all of the Group's Meds to be held by the Group leader.

 

[bogflogger]

Pibbleb's post illustrates, Exactly, why you should not administer anything to Clients!

Here's Wishing your Son a speedy recovery!

 

[pibbleb]

Cheers Bogflogger, the scratching is the worst, nothing a good strong belt strapping his arms down wouldn't fix.

Pib

 

[Goose]

I think the litigation side of things is a big worry, but I would rather be in court defending myself for doing something I beleived to be right, than being in court defending myself against not doing something that I beleived to be wrong.

 

[bogflogger]

I DO follow my concience, Nickg!

My concience tells me that I have NO moral right to dabble in procedures that I am not qualified to practice.

It also tells me, that ultimately, we are practicing First Aid, NOT Primary Care, and that going beyond your competence, is tantamount to attempted murder.

I do understand where you are coming from, and have twice been involved in incidents involving fatalities (one RTA and a MRT carry out) but at the end of the day, you have to accept that some injuries are simply beyond the skills of First Aiders, and stick with recognized protocols.

 

[Wayne]

As a qualified First Aider you are not obligated to perform first aid. You have the right to walk on by and I for one would not cast blame if you did.

That said I have helped out 3 times this past month at the side of to road. 1 major seizure resulting in a unconscious child. A severly twisted ankle and smashed face, little old lady fell. A child knocked off his bike. Concussion and abrasions.

I also drove past 2 accidents without stopping when i realised there was no injuries. 2 young lads swearing at each other. I am not going to bother getting involved.

It is sensible to take precautions against being sued. only work within your level of skill and competancy and do not give out medication ever.

I'm not sure knowing i helped saved the man thats now taking my house and business from me in a lawsuit would really console me. Even a failed lawsuit is going to result in months of stress and anxiety and expense as you try to clear your name.

It's a sad world but I recommend on my First Aid courses that when your travelling in the USA do not perform first aid on anyone unless they are a member of your family.

 

[Scuba Pete]

When i lived in the US I was told by a mate that was a first aider, that it was a crime not to help someone if you are trained in FA. That was a few years ago, and it might only apply to cirtain training, but be warned.

I am not sure how the law stands now, I just thought I would mention it. Again, that might only apply to the state I lived in.

Pete

 

[bogflogger]

That is not applicable in the UK for First Aiders.

It is applicable, if you have "A Duty of Care" like Nurses and Doctors.

 

[Scuba Pete]

If you read the post you will see we are talking about in the USA.

Pete

 

[den]

Ok so picture the scenario.

You are taking a group of children into the mountains. Weather reports say’s that there is not much chance of any sun today.

Do you still kit check all the children for sun cream and send them home if they have none, just on the off chance the sun comes out?

You arrive at your location and the sun decides to come out. Do you cancel the trip as one child does not have sun cream?

You are on the mountains and a child does not have any sun protection do you let him burn?

Acting in loco parentis you would not let a child burn. So it looks like the trip is off for the whole group. Just because one parent decides not to send his/her child with any sun protection.

This thread is all good food for thought. I can’t say I have ever seen an informed consent saying failing to supply your child with the correct sun protection for the trip will result in your child being excluded from the activity. Going by this thread it might be worth adding from now on.

 

[Martyn]

That is not applicable in the UK for First Aiders.

It is applicable, if you have "A Duty of Care" like Nurses and Doctors.

Correct. It's ironic that I have no first aid training whatsoever, but i can loose my licence for not stopping at an RTA. Under such circumstances, preofessionals with a duty of care are legally obliged to do everything and anything within their "scope of professional practice" . This differes from person to person and means that if you have the knowledge and skills, you should crack in. Someone who works in a nursing home may have limited scope to offer much help, while someone who works in A&E or a trauma unit may have considerably more. It's down to the individual professional to decide their own limits, based on thier own qualifications, experience, training and skills. Though you may have to justify all of your actions in a court of law.

But this ONLY applies for people with a professional and legal duty of care and not first aiders.

This legal and professional obligation to stop and help, has been written into law by parliament and a professional could face prosecution and loss of licence for ignoring it.

Incidentally, for those people who followed the knife law thread, it is this legal requirement to give assistance, that gives me my "get out of jail free" card for carrying a locking, bladed article in a public place. If I'm required by law to stop and help, then I blimmin well want a one handed opening, locking knife for cutting seatbelts, removing clothing etc.

There is a get out though - "sorry m'lud, I refused to offer assistance because I'd had a pint of beer. It is my professional duty to recognise the irrisponsibility of practicing while under the influence and ....not do it."

 

[Scuba Pete]

As long as your not diving by in your car, I dont think they would like that, hehe.

Pete

 

[Martyn]

As long as your not diving by in your car, I dont think they would like that, hehe.

Pete

Indeed.

Though if you were not a big drinker, it could be possible to feel incapable of practicing safely, while under the limit for driving. It's thin, but plausible.

On the other hand, it may be preferable to loose your licence to drive a car than loose your licence to earn a living.

 

[Andy]

this would be the bit where if you call an ambulance and it comes across someone in need before it gets to you it has to stop and send another one to teh first call out.
We have a 3rd year med student who gets rather fed up that she can do a lot of things in a hospital but the moment she steps out of the grounds her insurence wont cover her and she shouldn't use those aspects of her knowledge

I've started a thread on bits of first aid kit as I'm not sure if I'm allowed to carry zink oxide tape on duty (when I get qualified that is) but I'll want it for my own use somewhere else

 

[Martyn]

We have a 3rd year med student who gets rather fed up that she can do a lot of things in a hospital but the moment she steps out of the grounds her insurence wont cover her and she shouldn't use those aspects of her knowledge

That's because she's a student. Her vicarious liability insurance will only cover her while she's in the appropriate training environment, specified by her employer and her employers insurers. Oustide of her specified place of training/employment, her vicarious liability insurance is void. As she's not a qualified doctor, she cant practice under her own remit yet. When she qualifies, she will have her own professional indemnity insurance, which will cover her as an individual practitioner, as well as vicarious liability insurance which will cover her when she's practicing for her employer. My professional indemnity insurance is for £3.5 million, hers will probably be much higher.

 

[philm4]

I have thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread, whats clear to me is that all who have contributed seem to want to make the world a better safer place, and all are trying to help. Probably the people who make up "the rules" are also just trying to ensure the most effective care is given in most cases. A tough job. It seems that as human beings we are all very poor at accepting that stuff goes wrong in life and in rare cases people get badly injured or die, I don't think we have ever been any good at accepting accidents, and nowadays even less so, we are always looking to find the cause and stop it happening again. I guess thats progress. What I don't like is the laying of blame at the door of the well meaning, but thats our culture and we have to live with it.

All I hope is that if I ever have a bad accident one of the contributors to this thread is about to help because they sure as hell will be able to help me more than I could help myself.

Does anyone have a link to the essentials of a personal first aid kit that should be carried on outdoor trips + the reasons for carrying each item?

 

[pibbleb]

Hi there, it's been a real interesting one and I've also enjoyed the views of other I can be a bit narrow minded somethimes, like many I quess, so it's good to see such a healthy debate storRE has a lot to answer for.

You may find this thread useful as it develops, or try doing a key word search above
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/community/showthread.php?t=13449

Best of luck

Pib

 

[charliefox]

Well, that passed an interesting 30 mins, reading all those posts

I don't think I've seen a post from a civvy paramedic on here yet..... apologies if I've missed it, so I thought I'd make a few comments.

I need to point out at this stage that I work in the North of England for an ambulance service as a paramedic. I'm in my 7th year of this wonderful (?) job and have been first on scene with several jobs that have made national news headlines. I'm also in the wonderful position of being able to state some of my facts without being able to amplify on them, as I'd probably get into trouble legally and certainly from my employers! So believe me if you will....

The first thing I need to point out is ambulance response times. We are requested by the government to reach 75% of Cat A calls in under 8 mins. I can honestly say in 7 years that my % of "on target" A calls is around 15%. That figure is true for probably 30% of our fleet. Fortunately, for people interested in statistics, like politicians, the other 70% of our fleet handle the vast majority of Cat A calls in under 8 mins. This is due to the fact that they occour in major population centres where cover is at it's best.

A logical extension of those facts leads us to show that most life threatening trauma occours outside of that wonderful metropolitan umbrella of cover, out on the motorways and in the countryside, where cover is limited.

Where am I going with this, you may wonder? Just establishing our wonderful response times to extra urban areas - typically 20 mins, sometimes 30mins and on a regular basis of at least twice a month - a 45 min response. 18 months ago I was a lone responder required to attend an A call to a man with a roof on his chest - it took me 2 hours to get to him and he was only 10 miles away. This was due to unusual, but not unprecedented weather conditions.

Which is why, as a paramedic, I carry a full parabag in my vehicle. It has cannulas, a full intubation kit, it has some drugs, it certainly has Hartmanns fluid. I'm fortunate that the skills discussed here are something that I practice on a daily basis, whether it be cannulation, fluid administartion or the admin of Controlled Drugs.

Unfortunately, over the past 12 months, I've had cause to attend, whilst off duty, a pedestrain vs car RTC (crew took 20 mins to arrive), 3 seperate RTC's, one of which was on a Motorway, a person who had fallen 15 feet from the top to the bottom of their stairs and a profoundly unconcious person, ?cause.

Maybe I'm just unlucky , however, I'm glad I have the kit with me. I do get a lot of derision from certain quarters, particularly whilst away on bushcraft courses. Recently I've learned to laugh about it, rather than stop carrying the kit. I admit that the chances of someone actually suffering a tension pneumothorax are fairly slim, but then again, how much room / weight does a 16G cannula and a 20ml syringe take up? I know I'd be mortified if someone died in front of me for the sake of that kit or 0.5mls of 1 in 1:000 adrenaline.

Shortly I'll be spending some time in a wood with a few like minded souls being taught what to do with my GB SFA properly. The wood is 6 miles as the crow flies to a large town. It is inaccessible to all but 4WD vehicles, which rules out ambulances. The nearest field for helimed id probably 800 yds away (try carrying a grown adult without a proper stretcher for half a mile ). Canopy openings for winching to a Sea King are closer, a couple of hundred yards. Basically "help" is going to be 30 mins away. Will I have a few FFD and my Hartmanns with me....... definitely.

You're right, in Europe we're lucky. Usually we have trained medical help a few minutes away, sometimes we don't and I'm happy to do what I can when I can, within my professional capacity.