Gun Advice

[Melonfish]

Any gun shaped object on public land will land you one thing and one thing only. A firearms response unit.
you will realise within moments of staring down the barrel of no less then 10 fully loaded 9mm pistols/sub machine guns that your efforts to take your air rifle into a public space was not only futile but stupid.

i'm not being mean i'm laying it out, i'm from the airsoft community and the thing is we take all this busines VERY seriously, who wouldn't if you had a bb gun that looked, felt and acted like the real thing, we've got guys with GPMG's, SA80's, M16's out the wazoo you name it.

friends on the forums have had doors kicked in at 5am, stop searches in their cars turning into fully armed response nonsense whilst travelling back and forth to sites, heck we've had coppers show up at an airsoft shop in sheffield and attempt to get the place closed for selling firearms.

Its a world of hassle you can do without. my only advice is "Private land with permission". regardless of anything else, if your on private land with landowners permission you can do anything you want from driving tanks to blowing up cars, seriously.

 

[Arri]

Most reasonable thing is to join your local Rifle and Gun club. I would advice an NRA affiliated club just to be on the safe side (linky with affiliated NRA clubs: http://www.nra.org.uk/common/asp/links/links.asp?site=NRA&cat=4)

Then you can use your rifle in a safe environment and at the same time pickup a tip or two about proper use and maintenance.

Also, if you're a member of the club for more than 6 months you can apply for an FAC (Firearm Certificate) and buy/keep your own rifle.

BTW, airgun or not the following should be always applied when carrying your gun:

1. keep the cartridge and pellets/bullets separate (most gun cases have a pocket or two for that reason).
2. Never carry it in public without a carry case, you're just asking for trouble.
3. Have a safe location to keep your gun at home (even for a simple airgun) away from kids and prying eyes. (if you have kids around, consider buying a trigger lock)
5. *NEVER EVER EVER EVER* point the gun towards another person or an open space even if there is no cartridge loaded. Always carry it and hand it over pointing downwards or towards a wall.
6. When not shooting, remove the cartridge, even if you stop for a 1 minute breather.
7. If it's a single-shot break one, carry it open like you would with a shotgun.


Remember: If you learn to treat your airgun like a firearm, you'll only need to learn the rules once!


Cheers,

Arri

 

[HillBill]

Did you not see this part?
"It is an offence under Section 19 of the Firearms Act 1968 for anyone without
lawful authority or reasonable excuse to have with him in a public place a
loaded shotgun or loaded air weapon or any other firearm, (whether loaded or
not) together with ammunition suitable for use in that firearm."

So for you to say that it's ok to go onto public land, set up some targets and shoot away is not only wrong but also illegal!

You missed the bit that says "without reasonable excuse."

Also an airgun does not come under firearms laws unless an offence has been commited first. That is a firearms law. Also public place could mean in a town centre which is what most of it is about, as i said same as knives. If that is your interpretation of the law then you must obviously never carry a knife outside your home or a permission? It must be illegal to do so. Yet we all know its not.

Just to recap the exact wording of knife and airgun laws.

" It is an offence for any person, without lawful authority or good reason, to have with him in a public place, any article which has a blade or is sharply pointed except for a folding pocket-knife which has a cutting edge to its blade not exceeding 3 inches"

airgun law

An offence to possess an airgun in a public place without lawful authority or a reasonable excuse.


Am i the only one who can see they are the same? As such said articles they represent are treated the same. Reasonable excuse for having it and your good to go.

 

[HillBill]

Most reasonable thing is to join your local Rifle and Gun club. I would advice an NRA affiliated club just to be on the safe side (linky with affiliated NRA clubs: http://www.nra.org.uk/common/asp/links/links.asp?site=NRA&cat=4)

Then you can use your rifle in a safe environment and at the same time pickup a tip or two about proper use and maintenance.

Also, if you're a member of the club for more than 6 months you can apply for an FAC (Firearm Certificate) and buy/keep your own rifle.

BTW, airgun or not the following should be always applied when carrying your gun:

1. keep the cartridge and pellets/bullets separate (most gun cases have a pocket or two for that reason).
2. Never carry it in public without a carry case, you're just asking for trouble.
3. Have a safe location to keep your gun at home (even for a simple airgun) away from kids and prying eyes. (if you have kids around, consider buying a trigger lock)
5. *NEVER EVER EVER EVER* point the gun towards another person or an open space even if there is no cartridge loaded. Always carry it and hand it over pointing downwards or towards a wall.
6. When not shooting, remove the cartridge, even if you stop for a 1 minute breather.
7. If it's a single-shot break one, carry it open like you would with a shotgun.


Remember: If you learn to treat your airgun like a firearm, you'll only need to learn the rules once!


Cheers,

Arri

Great advice Arri.

 

[Adze]

Thats all well and good, but firearms laws only apply to airguns AFTER an offence has been committed by one, not before. So you need to commit an offence first for that to apply.

Sorry bud but that's not factual. I can see where the confusion arises though.

The exemption is only for Part 1 Section 1 of the Firearms Act 1968. In Section 1 paragraph 3, subsection iiib in fact. I've quoted the text of the act below.

This section applies to every firearm except— [F1(a)a shot gun within the meaning of this Act, that is to say a smooth-bore gun (not being an air gun) which—
(i)has a barrel not less than 24 inches in length and does not have any barrel with a bore exceeding 2 inches in diameter;
(ii)either has no magazine or has a non-detachable magazine incapable of holding more than two cartridges; and
(iii)is not a revolver gun; and]
(b)an air weapon (that is to say, an air rifle, air gun or air pistol [F2which does not fall within section 5(1) and which is] not of a type declared by rules made by the Secretary of State under section 53 of this Act to be specially dangerous).

FWIW Section 1 is the requirement for a FAC not the requirement for an offence to be commited using an airgun before the act applies.

Cheers,

 

[dean4442]

Hillbill, you're quite right it does look that way however if you would like to try setting up a few targets outside your local police station and getting your air rifle out I can guarantee that you'll be knee deep in coppers before you can blink.
It's not my interpretation of the law that I worry about it is the police or a magistrates.

 

[Miyagi]

I can guarantee that you'll be knee deep in coppers before you can blink.

Knee deep eh?

If they throw pound coins I'll try that!!!

 

[dean4442]

Knee deep eh?

If they throw pound coins I'll try that!!!

I said coppers not pounds!

 

[HillBill]

Yes, i understand that. What i was saying was that for firearm laws to effect an airgunner (unless fac) then the airgunner has to be charged with an offence. If no offence, then no breach of law be it firearm or standard airgun laws.

Standard airgun laws that apply prior to firearm laws are the same as for a knife regarding public places. If you are within the law on that then no firearm law applies to an airgunner unles he holds an fac and carries an fac rated rifles.

I would not hunt on public land and when i say public land in this thread what i mean is public land that is away from residential streets etc such as woodland/field not town centre or public park etc which i would not consider taking a rifle to.

Now if being in a wood ( public) with a knife doing some carving or other bushy task is legal, which it is, as it constitutes "good reason" for carrying the knife then as the words of the law are practically the same for airguns, then shooting at a target with a rifle would be classed as "reasonable excuse" in the same public wood. A rifle is designed for shooting, a knife for cutting. If you are legal on the knife then you are legal on the rifle as long as you are using it responsibly and not endangering others or carrying it as a weapon.

Same as knife laws.

It really is the same as knife laws and no one here would say a knife is illegal when used with proper reason in a wood even if it was public.

The words of the law are the same, therefore it means the same thing. Nowhere at all does it say you can not shoot on public land it just restricts the reasons for having one on public land.

Yob messing about......no reasonable excuse.......illegal
Man shooting at targets safely in a defined range......reasonable excuse.....legal

Yob carrying knife in woods to look hard......illegal
Man carving a spoon in woods with a fixed blade knife........legal.

I didnt write the law, but that is what it says. Anyone who says different needs to read the law, and anyone who is a knife user and says different needs to then ask himself "am i really allowed to have this knife here?"

 

[Togger]

Hillbill I think you are misquoting the legislation and someone is going to get into serious trouble if they follow your interpretation.

"It is an offence under Section 19 of the Firearms Act 1968 for anyone without
lawful authority or reasonable excuse to have with him in a public place a
loaded shotgun or loaded air weapon or any other firearm, (whether loaded or
not) together with ammunition suitable for use in that firearm."

Shooting paper targets is NOT a reasonable excuse. A reaqsonable excuse would be someone who found an air rifle perhaps, in a public place and was keeping it safe until it was handed over to a Police officer.

Look up the definition of a firearm ...""Firearm", within the definition of the Firearms Acts, means a lethal barrelled weapon of any description, from which any shot, bullet or other missile can be discharged. It includes any prohibited weapon, whether it is such a lethal weapon as aforesaid or not, and any component part of such a weapon, and any accessory to such weapon designed or adapted to diminish the noise or flash caused by the firing of the weapon.
Therefore the definition includes firearms such as rifles, as well as shotguns and air guns.

An offence DOES NOT have to be comitted with an air rifle before it is classed as a firearm.

I speak with a bit of authority on this, I was an armed Response officer with our force for six years. I still deal with firearms offences and I am also a trained firearms instructor.

You can possess a firearm, air rifle, shotgun, sec 1 rifle in a public place if you have a reasonable excuse, for instance travelling to and from a place where you have permission to shoot, ie, shooting club, private land. It cannot be loaded in a public place. The issue of a firearm being covered is covered by age restrictions and not a total ban, for instance you can carry a shotgun uncovered in a public place as long as it's not loaded. You will see this often in the countryside when shooters cross roads from one field to another. The shotgun would generally be broke and carried over the shoulder. However if your under 15yrs, it must be covered!

Please don't fall foul of the legislation and try to interpret it to "fit" your thoughts. If you do shoot an air rifle in a public place then don't forget, when the armed response unit turns up and deploy you WILLprobably have weapons pointed at you. Remain calm and do exactly what you are told, and slowly!

 

[HillBill]

Hillbill, you're quite right it does look that way however if you would like to try setting up a few targets outside your local police station and getting your air rifle out I can guarantee that you'll be knee deep in coppers before you can blink.
It's not my interpretation of the law that I worry about it is the police or a magistrates.

Yes and you wouldnt carve a spoon outside the police station either mate.

Common sense kicks in obviously, heavily populated public place = no go area

sparesly populated public wood or field is different.

 

[HillBill]

Hillbill I think you are misquoting the legislation and someone is going to get into serious trouble if they follow your interpretation.

"It is an offence under Section 19 of the Firearms Act 1968 for anyone without
lawful authority or reasonable excuse to have with him in a public place a
loaded shotgun or loaded air weapon or any other firearm, (whether loaded or
not) together with ammunition suitable for use in that firearm."

Shooting paper targets is NOT a reasonable excuse. A reaqsonable excuse would be someone who found an air rifle perhaps, in a public place and was keeping it safe until it was handed over to a Police officer.

Look up the definition of a firearm ...""Firearm", within the definition of the Firearms Acts, means a lethal barrelled weapon of any description, from which any shot, bullet or other missile can be discharged. It includes any prohibited weapon, whether it is such a lethal weapon as aforesaid or not, and any component part of such a weapon, and any accessory to such weapon designed or adapted to diminish the noise or flash caused by the firing of the weapon.
Therefore the definition includes firearms such as rifles, as well as shotguns and air guns.

An offence DOES NOT have to be comitted with an air rifle before it is classed as a firearm.

I speak with a bit of authority on this, I was an armed Response officer with our force for six years. I still deal with firearms offences and I am also a trained firearms instructor.

You can possess a firearm, air rifle, shotgun, sec 1 rifle in a public place if you have a reasonable excuse, for instance travelling to and from a place where you have permission to shoot, ie, shooting club, private land. It cannot be loaded in a public place. The issue of a firearm being covered is covered by age restrictions and not a total ban, for instance you can carry a shotgun uncovered in a public place as long as it's not loaded. You will see this often in the countryside when shooters cross roads from one field to another. The shotgun would generally be broke and carried over the shoulder. However if your under 15yrs, it must be covered!

Please don't fall foul of the legislation and try to interpret it to "fit" your thoughts. If you do shoot an air rifle in a public place then don't forget, when the armed response unit turns up and deploy you WILLprobably have weapons pointed at you. Remain calm and do exactly what you are told, and slowly!

It is the same law as knives. Even worded the same. So is carving wood with a knife not good reason for having one? If so then we must all break the law regularly.

Like i said i have had a brew with a couple of officers while shooting targets on land with a public footpath running through it a hundred or so yards away. They were grateful of the brew and not bothered about the rifle.

 

[jonajuna]

the public do not own public spaces as alluded to earlier

parks, common lands etc are all owned by the local authority who have powers to apply bye laws as they see fit (subject to democratic process)

the local authorities are part of 'her majestys government'

thus anything that is not owned by deed by a private individual is in fact the property of the queen

we are a (consitiutional) monarchy not a republic, everything (bar the private as above) is "owned" by the monarach. obviously in our model of monarchy, the head of state rarely if ever becomes overly political. (til prince charles gets crowned of course )

also, certain privatly owned land is also a 'public space' if the public have a general ability to be on it (eg. the priavtly owned land car park of a shopping mall). wether this is defined as such for the laws being discussed here, i dont know

 

[HillBill]

That makes sense. Just the same as home owners never owning the land their house is built on etc. Fair point mate.

 

[Togger]

It is the same law as knives. Even worded the same. So is carving wood with a knife not good reason for having one? If so then we must all break the law regularly.

Like i said i have had a brew with a couple of officers while shooting targets on land with a public footpath running through it a hundred or so yards away. They were grateful of the brew and not bothered about the rifle.

I'm not saying that your local Bobby may have turned a blind eye to it, and probably in rural locations a lot of them may use common sense. But to say it is not an offence is wrong, and someone could read your post/thoughts and take it as correct, and end up getting in serious trouble and at worse shot at!
Armed response units are deployed daily to reports of "man with gun" you may get away with advice, you could end up having your prized possession seized and a trip to the local station and court, and worse case .... well it speaks for itself.

You cannot say that knives come under the same legislation, they don't. If you read through the basic definition of a lot of offences in law, they read similar, but it depends under which legislation they come under as to the actual offences committed.

I'm not wanting to get into an argument, I just don't want any of the members on here falling foul of a complicated piece of legislation.

 

[HillBill]

I just believe its wrong to say its illegal, dont do it, when thats not the case at all. I dont want an argument neither mate, I'm just saying that nowhere does it says illegal, only an offence without reasonable excuse. Which like i say is the same laws as knives. No knives and air guns are not the same. But the law which prohibits/permits their use, is.

 

[Togger]

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one mate.
I've been a cop for 24 yrs on specialist firearm units, trained instructor and NSRA instructor. I am only saying how it is! I've been on numerous training courses and many many court cases where reasonable excuse has been discussed. Shooting paper targets/cans whatever would never be reasonable excuse. As I said before the odd local bobby may turn a blind eye if it's been done in a safe and controlled manner, but that doesn't make it legal.
Folks, you have the choice in our democratic society. follow HillBills advice and his interpretation, or heed my advice and stay on the right side of the legislation. It's only advice after all. (please don't read into it that i've got my head stuck up my own a**e, I just want folks to stay safe)

 

[Doc]

I strongly advise folks not to shoot with airguns in a public place without written permission of the landowner.

Hill Bill may be right that the law specifies 'without reasonable excuse' But reasonable excuse is not defined in law, and the onus would lie on the shooter to prove it. Transporting an unloaded rifle to a gun club would certainly be reasonable excuse, but target practice on public land is much more questionable.

A quick google shows that people have actually been prosecuted for firing air rifles in a public place.

One was convicted of possession of an offensive weapon. He had been shooting at rocks on the coast.

In Scotland a man found shooting an air rifle in a park was convicted of 'discharging an air rifle to the danger of others.' There is nothing to suggest he was actually shooting at anyone.

And then there is that catch-all offence - breach of the peace.

Don't do it folks.

 

[BorderReiver]

Doc has it spot on.

The letter of the law is not what this is about; it's about what will actually happen if you play with your air rifle on public land.

It is not worth the hastle and possible criminal record just to play with an air rifle. Don't forget that people have been faced with armed response units when shooting legitimately on private property. One day some poor sod is going to get shot.

There are clubs all over the country with both indoor and outdoor facilities to allow you to shoot your weapons until your trigger finger is calloused.

 

[Longstrider]

Whilst I fully agree with the rest of the post too, I wanted to highlight this point..

...Don't forget that people have been faced with armed response units when shooting legitimately on private property.

Been there, done that. 3 Flipping times (armed response units) and one incident where they (8 of them) came, but didn't know what I was doing and nigh-on messed themselves when I appeared from the darkness in full cammo holding a semi-auto .22LR (Stainless, black-stocked Ruger 10/22) not 10yds from them. This incident resulted in 45 minutes in handcuffs and a totally knackered eveings rabbitting despite having a URL/URN (Togger can explain, I'm sure, and correct my error URL? URN ? ) number to quote them to prove that we had informed police HQ of legitimate pest-control shooting in the area to be done that night

HillBill can spout rubbish regarding his own interpretation of the law until he is blue in the face, but it will still be rubbish. Shoot on public land with anything and you're VERY likely to find out how many armed officers your local force have in very short order. In these days of press and government induced paranoia, they'll just as likely to be searching your home from attic to cellar for any other "incriminating items" (Like knives, heavens forbid!) while you sit and stare at a cell door from the inside.

To draw a parallel between shooting and using a knife out in the local woods is simply ridiculous. For starters, just how much noise does your knife make in use ? Even a well moderated PCP has a very distinctive 'report' and the sound of the pellet in flight and it's impact on target will alert any passer-by to exactly what you are doing even if they can't see you (and you can't see them)
All it takes is one panicky call from a 'highly concerned citizen' with a mobile phone of "Man with a gun! Man with a gun in the woods!" and Officers Heckler+Koch will be headed your way in no time. The same response is hardly likely to call of "I saw a man in the woods whittling a stick with a knife" even if they were to bother making the call in the first place.

Get permission and keep within it... or don't go at all.