Futurproofing your house

[Toddy]

I live in the centre of Scotland. My government is so aware of the low sunshine levels that it advises that everybody, from small children upwards, take a regular dose of VitaminD.
Sunshine is an unreliable heat source, and in Winter time, we can have day after day after day when we're lucky if we have six hours of reasonable daylight. It it's very overcast folks have lights on all day long.
That's our normal.
We have solar lights in the gardens around here, just now they're brilliantly lit up come nighttime, but by the end of this month, they won't be reliable. By the end of October they just don't work bar a faint glimmer.
Just not enough sunlight.

To use solar panels to charge up just enough battery power to use to charge batteries for emergency led lights, for phones and computers is one thing. To use that most unreliable energy to charge up the entirety of the hot water system in the house is unfeasible.
Not without a massive solar array and a massive, and extremely expensive, battery bank.

Now rainwater down the rones somehow charging a dynamo type thing.....that's potentially possible.
We get a lot of rain......until it freezes

I suspect that at the end of the day adaptability is going to be our greatest trait.

 

[Watch-keeper]

All "mineral" wools are for ever if not mechanically broken, kind of. The mineral mineral wool is my preference because it is nicer to handle than glass wool. Not much difference in insulation values with equal densities. For mineral wool the max is at about 60-70 kg/m³.

There is one property where the differences might matter, in a fire glass wool melts and kind of disappears at much lower temp than mineral. Also proper installing might make a difference, even small gaps leak heat and flames.

Here in Finland at the moment the code requires about 250mm min for walls and 350 for ceiling for mineral wool. So called zero energy houses have about 400mm and 600mm but that is a misnomer anyway as warm water is not counted in the heating energy balance of the house though of course it is counted for total energy usage.

Thanks TLM, handling properties is useful as I will be installing it myself but looking at your advice it looks like the mineral wool has a few decent advantages if you count fire performance to.
The 350mm for ceiling I assume that is a minimum as well ?

 

[Stew]

Because it literally replaces gas with solar energy. I jmhave nothing more to say on this

The cost/ benefit is so low for domestic though that it’s only a rich man’s game. How much are you saving per year with your setup?

 

[TLM]

The 350mm for ceiling I assume that is a minimum as well ?

Definitely, most builders actually use 400mm. You have to take into account that this is for Finnish temps. With UK min temps I would assume a lot less is enough. In UK climate I would be more concerned with moisture control all things included. Wet mineral wool is not a very good insulator though if gravity works it tends to dry fairly fast, excess moisture just drips down.

 

[ManFriday4]

The cost/ benefit is so low for domestic though that it’s only a rich man’s game. How much are you saving per year with your setup?

Hot water from March to Novemver using 1x 2Sqm Ritter parabolic direct flow evacuated tube panel. In December, January & Feb we still get hot water from diffuse ambient light wich takes the tank to 33°C. NHS TMVs are set to 37°C

 

[ManFriday4]

I live in the centre of Scotland. My government is so aware of the low sunshine levels that it advises that everybody, from small children upwards, take a regular dose of VitaminD.
Sunshine is an unreliable heat source, and in Winter time, we can have day after day after day when we're lucky if we have six hours of reasonable daylight. It it's very overcast folks have lights on all day long.
That's our normal.
We have solar lights in the gardens around here, just now they're brilliantly lit up come nighttime, but by the end of this month, they won't be reliable. By the end of October they just don't work bar a faint glimmer.
Just not enough sunlight.

To use solar panels to charge up just enough battery power to use to charge batteries for emergency led lights, for phones and computers is one thing. To use that most unreliable energy to charge up the entirety of the hot water system in the house is unfeasible.
Not without a massive solar array and a massive, and extremely expensive, battery bank.

Now rainwater down the rones somehow charging a dynamo type thing.....that's potentially possible.
We get a lot of rain......until it freezes

I suspect that at the end of the day adaptability is going to be our greatest trait.

Micro turbines?

Micro-Hydro Power - Centre for Alternative Technology

Micro-hydro turbines can be a very efficient and convenient form of small-scale renewable electricity. Get free advice and tips from CAT.

cat.org.uk

 

[ManFriday4]

Hot water from March to Novemver using 1x 2Sqm Ritter parabolic direct flow evacuated tube panel. In December, January & Feb we still get hot water from diffuse ambient light wich takes the tank to 33°C. NHS TMVs are set to 37°C

The system I have was installed by me. We use an Ozo twin coil unvented 200ltr stainless cylinder, installed to meet current uk WRAS regulations for safety and planning regs. There is a pump & flow control running the solar energy input and a differential thermostatic controller which sense panel temperature & compares is with cylinder temperature at the center of the cylinder. There are 3 sensor pockets in the cylinder: 1 at the top, 1 mid way and 1 just near the solar coil when the temp at the top of the cylinder reaches 59°C the system shuts down.

The hoses used are stainless steel pre insulated with 500°C rated foam and hight temperature compression connections.

The cylinder loses 3° overnight.

 

[Stew]

Hot water from March to Novemver using 1x 2Sqm Ritter parabolic direct flow evacuated tube panel. In December, January & Feb we still get hot water from diffuse ambient light wich takes the tank to 33°C. NHS TMVs are set to 37°C

And the cost to install?

 

[Stew]

Hot water from March to Novemver using 1x 2Sqm Ritter parabolic direct flow evacuated tube panel. In December, January & Feb we still get hot water from diffuse ambient light wich takes the tank to 33°C. NHS TMVs are set to 37°C

You’re also risking legionnaires disease with this setup. I wouldn’t recommend it. You’re risking death.

 

[Watch-keeper]

Definitely, most builders actually use 400mm. You have to take into account that this is for Finnish temps. With UK min temps I would assume a lot less is enough. In UK climate I would be more concerned with moisture control all things included. Wet mineral wool is not a very good insulator though if gravity works it tends to dry fairly fast, excess moisture just drips down.

Ok that's good to know again thanks for the info it gives me more to think about.
I also started looking at eco friendly insulation but they start throwing up more problems including longevity and expense so it looks like its going to be mineral wool for me.

 

[Toddy]

Hot water from March to Novemver using 1x 2Sqm Ritter parabolic direct flow evacuated tube panel. In December, January & Feb we still get hot water from diffuse ambient light wich takes the tank to 33°C. NHS TMVs are set to 37°C

I live surrounded by trees. We get a lot of debris. Everything from silver birch to sycamore, oak to ash, willow to pine. There's always a lot of stuff coming down one way and t'other.
Twigs, leaves, seedy things, branches.....the tiles are always covered with something or other, and the rones need cleaned out regularly.
I'd really worry about those tubes up there.
It's not unknown for us to have snow on the roof for six weeks at a time too....good insulation, and low light levels mean it doesn't always melt quickly. Indeed the issue is that we can get snowpack coming into the loft space if an ice dam forms. We've given serious thought to running a 'hot wire' along the rones to stop that happening when we get a long cold spell.

 

[ManFriday4]

You’re also risking legionnaires disease with this setup. I wouldn’t recommend it. You’re risking death.

No I am not.

When an unvented Cylinder is installed according to the water regulations (WRAS) it must meet the following criteria it must have its own water inlet regulator rated for the tank, a non return valve soas to not contaminate the supply 3 overpressure/thermal dump valves, tundish at the over pressure venting pipe which must exit the building safely.

There must also be an electric immersion on a timer to operate 1 time per week to heat the tank to 60°C & hold it there for 1hour. This is set to happen at 4pm when the tank is always at its hottest. We know this is the tanks hottest time because we data log the peak hot water periods, number kwh of heat pushed into the tank from the sun and thermal losses.

Any other plumbing advice?

 

[Toddy]

So, it needs electricity, it's not a self sufficient system ?

 

[Stew]

No I am not.

When an unvented Cylinder is installed according to the water regulations (WRAS) it must meet the following criteria it must have its own water inlet regulator rated for the tank, a non return valve soas to not contaminate the supply 3 overpressure/thermal dump valves, tundish at the over pressure venting pipe which must exit the building safely.

There must also be an electric immersion on a timer to operate 1 time per week to heat the tank to 60°C & hold it there for 1hour. This is set to happen at 4pm when the tank is always at its hottest. We know this is the tanks hottest time because we data log the peak hot water periods, number kwh of heat pushed into the tank from the sun and thermal losses.

Any other plumbing advice?

I could give you loads but you clearly know it all.

Clearly here to just cause trouble as well. Ignore list….

 

[Woody girl]

So, it needs electricity, it's not a self sufficient system ?

Power supplied by solar no?

 

[Woody girl]

I could give you loads but you clearly know it all.

Clearly here to just cause trouble as well. Ignore list….

Oh no, not again.!
This is silly. Stop being such a bully!

I have a similar thing with my air source heat pump, and it is heated once a week ,just as he says, whether I have the water heating turned on or not, to stop legionars whether I want it to do so, or not. It's on a timer, set by the technicians that installed it, its a legal safety feature.
so he is correct.

 

[Toddy]

Power supplied by solar no?

But it needs electricity to ensure that the water is always safe.

 

[Toddy]

Oh no, not again.!
This is silly. Stop being such a bully!

I have a similar thing with my air source heat pump, and it is heated once a week ,just as he says, whether I have the water heating turned on or not, to stop legionars whether I want it to do so, or not. It's on a timer, set by the technicians that installed it, its a legal safety feature.
so he is correct.

So that's not self sufficient, it needs an electric supply to make it safe.
I thought the aim was to be self sufficient in the case of long running power outage and not use carbon fuels at all.

 

[ManFriday4]

So, it needs electricity, it's not a self sufficient system ?

I currently have 500wp of PV of which 300Wp are in storage and only used for festivals to run a small off grid sound system.

If required I can hook the pump & reg to off grid.

It can be off grid but at the moment it's not. It would take about 3 hours toe switch it to off grid with kit I already have.

 

[ManFriday4]

But it needs electricity to ensure that the water is always safe.

I have a 12v 300w immersion long heater not installed (in soreage). The immersion entry point is at the top of the tank so I wouldn't have to drain it completely to install.