So, just to be clear here, you're arguing that the entire concept of "law" is a fundamentally flawed waste of time?
Further knife ban
- Thread starter mark wood
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So, just to be clear here, you're arguing that the entire concept of "law" is a fundamentally flawed waste of time?
Not so - the plan thus far is to license the sellers of non domestic knives but not the purchasers themselves i.e the shop will require a license but not the consumer.
There is a further publication from March 2006 which shows the response from this consultation http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2005/11/30165358/53589#a10
It's pretty ambiguous to say the least - split 50/50 on most issues and one conclusion made was that criminals will not adhere to the new licensing scheme should it be introduced - imagine that!. Comment was also made about "policing" this scheme - how to track internet sales etc - impossible!
Also of note is the fact that there are no statistics for crimes involving domestic vs non domestic knives.
For the moment the licensing scheme is not being introduced - that is not to say that it won't be in the future.
No, not at all, Gregorach: arguing this would be a completely wasted way to pass the time!
Laws have been around for a very long time, and are necessary to the functioning of any society, even if they are unwritten laws or based on oral tradition, and what I think about it will make not a iota of difference! But from the perspective that they probably won't affect in any major way the people who don't, and have no intention to, respect the laws that stop them doing what they wish to do, yes.
To my mind, knee jerk laws that end up penalizing the majority but don't have any effect on the people they are supposedly designed to control are a waste of time, and may end up turning the majority who actually do respect the laws into unwitting criminals.
from what I've read this isn't a new law at all, just a tougher enforcement of an existing law. Can't see this as being anything but a good thing.
I would conjecture most violent crimes carried out involving knives are the domestic variety e.g. kitchen and craft knives simply because it was in the vicinty.
The crime I can recall most recently carried out with a knife was the man who was sent down for life for killing another on a bus with a £2.49 kitchen knife bought from a supermarket.
The law to try to control non-domestic knives is thus back to front but I bet the supermarkets would lean on the government if it tried to pass any laws that affected their business so its easier to pass laws that affect the only small shops selling knives.
The crime I can recall most recently carried out with a knife was the man who was sent down for life for killing another on a bus with a £2.49 kitchen knife bought from a supermarket.
The law to try to control non-domestic knives is thus back to front but I bet the supermarkets would lean on the government if it tried to pass any laws that affected their business so its easier to pass laws that affect the only small shops selling knives.
I agree with Shing. People don't tend to go out and buy a damascus scandi with a buffalo horn - silver - curly birch - silver - buffalo horn handle to stab someone... I've had a knife pulled on me a couple times, one was a wee kitchen knife and one was an SAK. I seem to recall a guy I barely knew getting attacked with a drywall saw, too.
I think that they should make the punishments for actual knife crimes more severe. But they're not, they're saying that you can be arrested for carrying a 2 inch locking penknife.
I disagree, they're making the law more strict. There's not a tougher enforcement of it. If they had, perhaps, sacked a few of the politicians that make up these laws, they could've hired a few more coppers and there would be no need for a stricter law.
I think that they should make the punishments for actual knife crimes more severe. But they're not, they're saying that you can be arrested for carrying a 2 inch locking penknife.
1. Is there accurate data to show how the current level of violent crime compares with prior years. No, as reporting criteria have changed as have the offenses.
2. Are current laws and guidelines enforced uniformly to ensure that the data being collated at present give a useful representation of the situation as it now exists. No.
3. By what criteria can we judge the current situation. Media and Police reports, are these accurate and unbiased. No. Why, because sensationalism sells papers and increases TV viewing, Police press releases are unable to give full details for fear of compromising prosecution and protecting their political influence.
4. Are convicted criminals sentenced using all powers available to the court. No.
5. How do we define an offensive weapon? when does a Bic biro become an offensive weapon, when its used to write offensive words or when its used to take someones eye out.
Non of the above will help to formulate better and more just laws in the same way that they will not reduce crime. This can only be done by changing the attitude of society and this can only be done by inclusion of the violent criminals that we wish to isolate for years only to reintroduce to society latter with even more problems.
Having a what amounts to a dictatorship the government will do as the Police ask with a little political spin, call it an initiative prosecute a few individuals for carrying pencil sharpeners and adjust the figures, problem solved.
What this country desperately needs are statesmen and women who are beyond political influence and have sufficient standing in society to have their opinions respected and drive threw a complete overhaul of much of our criminal justice system. A reinvigorated House of Lords with a job to do.
Rant over, Pothunter.
2. Are current laws and guidelines enforced uniformly to ensure that the data being collated at present give a useful representation of the situation as it now exists. No.
3. By what criteria can we judge the current situation. Media and Police reports, are these accurate and unbiased. No. Why, because sensationalism sells papers and increases TV viewing, Police press releases are unable to give full details for fear of compromising prosecution and protecting their political influence.
4. Are convicted criminals sentenced using all powers available to the court. No.
5. How do we define an offensive weapon? when does a Bic biro become an offensive weapon, when its used to write offensive words or when its used to take someones eye out.
Non of the above will help to formulate better and more just laws in the same way that they will not reduce crime. This can only be done by changing the attitude of society and this can only be done by inclusion of the violent criminals that we wish to isolate for years only to reintroduce to society latter with even more problems.
Having a what amounts to a dictatorship the government will do as the Police ask with a little political spin, call it an initiative prosecute a few individuals for carrying pencil sharpeners and adjust the figures, problem solved.
What this country desperately needs are statesmen and women who are beyond political influence and have sufficient standing in society to have their opinions respected and drive threw a complete overhaul of much of our criminal justice system. A reinvigorated House of Lords with a job to do.
Rant over, Pothunter.
Scots_Charles_River
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Justice is one of the devolved areas to the Scottish Parl.
Scots Law has ben around as long as Scotland and is different to other Uk laws.
Fiscal/Financial law is similar though.
Nick
Scots_Charles_River
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Scots_Charles_River
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
You may be surprised how many kids 'carry' in schools and 'deal' or courier drugs.
Nick
your right on that one nick,so will banning guns and knives stop everyone ???
bernie
some illicit items may have passed through my hands at school.
and i usually had an opinel on me (for honest purposes). thats slightly different from guns though. mind you there was the incident on the school bus with the air gun...i think our gun ban and the new knife bans are good principals though. the very fact that they are there allows the authorities to act when things get out of hand. All my teenage misdemeanors were not harmful to others and therefore went unnoticed. carrying a knife for bushy purposes does not demand the attention of the police and we can all carry on with our outdoor games.
Scots_Charles_River
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
As a matter of interest, has anyone here been stopped by the police whilst carrying a knife for bushy purpose? I certainly haven't. I know this thing gets our heckles up a bit but have we really been affected at all?
but have we really been affected at all?
I wouldn't be remotely surprised. All of these things are already illegal Nick. Why not just enforce the existing laws?
Scots_Charles_River
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
As a matter of interest, has anyone here been stopped by the police whilst carrying a knife for bushy purpose? I certainly haven't. I know this thing gets our heckles up a bit
That's a good point. I think yer average copper will not give grief to a legitimate user and use their discression. But if a user got aggressive or refused to out a knife in a bag etc then it's a different matter. Wonder how many have been effected ?
Nick
Scots_Charles_River
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
There too busy catching speeding motorists. And they are reluctant to search under 16s and they would rather monitor couriers and find the regional suppliers/network.
Nick
Guess another ban won't make em any less busy Nick.
Seriously - as John says - no-one wants violent crime. However we already have some of the most stringent laws in the world concerning guns, knives etc. The fact that such things still happen, does not mean we should stop trying to find a solution though. What it genuinely does mean, to me at least, is that there is no point just adding laws - we have seen that the existing ones don't work.
Since the definition of stupidity is "doing the same thing again and again and expecting the outcome to be different", can we agree on this?
No one wants violent crime.
Since the existing, very strict, laws haven't prevented it, we must find a new way. I think there are lots of things we can, and should, do. These things are "multi pronged"
1. Improve detection rates. More police, better equipped, better trained, better rewarded.
2. Reduce the sources of crime. Few people set out to become disenfranchised and violent. So lets get to the reasons why people move down this path. Lack of opportunities? Boredom? Peer pressure? All these things can be addressed with will, funding and comittment.
3. Accept that some people are genuinely rotten. The punishment for the truly bad should be truly bad. We should seek first to prevent the cause, second to detect the offender. Those who have slipped onto a path we should seek to reform. Those beyond reformation, should be made an object lesson of. The truly bad should be punished, hard, long and indeed never allowed to be a menace to society again.
We really don't need more laws, we need less criminals.
I hope we can agree on this and be as passionate about finding solutions as we have in the debate
Red
Seriously - as John says - no-one wants violent crime. However we already have some of the most stringent laws in the world concerning guns, knives etc. The fact that such things still happen, does not mean we should stop trying to find a solution though. What it genuinely does mean, to me at least, is that there is no point just adding laws - we have seen that the existing ones don't work.
Since the definition of stupidity is "doing the same thing again and again and expecting the outcome to be different", can we agree on this?
No one wants violent crime.
Since the existing, very strict, laws haven't prevented it, we must find a new way. I think there are lots of things we can, and should, do. These things are "multi pronged"
1. Improve detection rates. More police, better equipped, better trained, better rewarded.
2. Reduce the sources of crime. Few people set out to become disenfranchised and violent. So lets get to the reasons why people move down this path. Lack of opportunities? Boredom? Peer pressure? All these things can be addressed with will, funding and comittment.
3. Accept that some people are genuinely rotten. The punishment for the truly bad should be truly bad. We should seek first to prevent the cause, second to detect the offender. Those who have slipped onto a path we should seek to reform. Those beyond reformation, should be made an object lesson of. The truly bad should be punished, hard, long and indeed never allowed to be a menace to society again.
We really don't need more laws, we need less criminals.
I hope we can agree on this and be as passionate about finding solutions as we have in the debate
Red
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