Have you stood next to a Komondor?....QUOTE]
Yes. They're a bit smaller than an average Western wolf. Although considerably larger than almost all species of Southern or Eastern wolves here.
First possible wolf killed by car in the Netherlands
- Thread starter Niels
- Start date
Possibly.
I think the OP is on the right track, farmers shouldn't be expected to pick up the tab for not shooting animals that threaten their livelihood, dogs do seem to keep them at bay (mostly) however there is more wilderness here for wolves to roam and more wild life for them to feed on.
I have travelled and slept out in areas where there are wolves, it doesn't bother me, I'd take my kids out there too. Pigs though, wild boar, those things freak me the hell out.
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I agree true wild boar (as opposed to feral pigs) can be scary things - especially because they tend to be in close cover so you are unlikely to see them coming. Hunting boar with spears must be quite a test of sphincter control!
Possibly.
I think the OP is on the right track, farmers shouldn't be expected to pick up the tab for not shooting animals that threaten their livelihood, dogs do seem to keep them at bay (mostly) however there is more wilderness here for wolves to roam and more wild life for them to feed on.
I have travelled and slept out in areas where there are wolves, it doesn't bother me, I'd take my kids out there too. Pigs though, wild boar, those things freak me the hell out.
Yeah. Mind I'm not poo-pooing the idea of guard dogs; they do help.
As to taking kids out around wolves, well yeah I'd do that too. I take the grandkids out now in bear country and have been out myself (as a kid) in cougar country. But in all such cases I or someone was/am armed. Likewise with feral hogs (although as BR said, they don't scare me like true wild boar would. Frequency of wolf attacks here on people is still an unknown quantity as their re-introduction is relatively recent. Coyotes however seen to be getting more and more brazen. Perhaps because of their adaptability; they can not only live, but actually thrive, in suburban environments in close proximity to humans.
I have farmed and understand the fear of losses. That said, I'm not convinced government reimbursement is necessarily the right answer either. If taken at it's logical consequence, the additional costs to the farmer caused by losses will be passed on to the customers in the form of higher costs for wool, lamb/mutton, etc. and thus still be shared by all.
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That's because it's a European wolf, quite a bit smaller than those in N.America, they also have fewer colour varieties, mostly greyish brown. Most wolves in western Europe are inbred to some extent too which reduces their size even more & makes them more dog like than wolfy.
There is a European compensation scheme for shepherds who loose stock to wolves ( & bears in the pyrenees) & are paid 1 1/2 times the value of the sheep lost, it's working very well In France, this involves an inspector examining the carcass to verify that it was indeed killed by wolves.There is also an organisation which offers free stock guarding pups (Pyrenean mountaing dogs) to shepherds in the Alps.
It should be noted that far more sheep are killed by dogs than by wolves.
I'm pretty sure that's part of the problem with our Southern and Eastern species as well.
Wouldn't that be hard to quantify though? I mean presumably current wolf populations are low whereas stray dogs are numerous? Kinda comparing apples to oranges at the moment.
All that said, I'd think a good guard dog would be at least as effective (if not more so) against stray/loose dogs amongst the sheep.
There has been no wolf re-introductions in France. The wolves arrived naturally in the southern French Alps in the early 1990's via Italy.DNA tests have proven that they are indeed of Italian origin. They have now colonised most of the Alps & there have been some sightings in the N.E of France ( les Vosges). they have also crossed the south of France & have started to colonise the pyrenees where they are no doubt breeding with Spanish wolves. There have been some unconfirmed signs in the S.W of France too.
Indeed they are!
I have had a couple of close encounters with wild boar - I was charged by a sow when I inadvertently got between her and her stripy piglets while walking around the Germany/Luxemburg border area (I never knew I was such a good tree climber!) and I was still shaking about an hour after Momma rounded up the kids and trotted off...
Another time was while camping in the Ardeche Gorge at Gournier when I was coaching canoeing there.
After an early morning visit to the loo block I was returning to our camp area when a great big tusker popped out of the bushes and stood facing me from only a few yards away. If I had not just "been" I think I would have there and then!
Luckily the boar turned and ran in the opposite direction - straight under the hammock of one of our coaching staff! Luckily they were pitched quite high and the boar did not make tusk contact with the part of a hammock dweller that hangs lowest!
I used to take my Scouts camping within earshot of wolves on a semi regular basis ... but they (the wolves) were safe behind the fences of a secure enclosure (from which they did at one point escape to be hunted down all around Cardigan area) but sadly the wolves are no more....
No not really. Wolves have a specific way of killing sheep as opposed to dogs which is easy enough to check, also sometimes only the skin/wool is left, as if it had been skinned which again is unique to wolves & not dogs.
In fact wolves kill & eat stray dogs so they are helping there......stock protection dogs are only effective in guarding smaller flocks, 4 dogs can pretty much take care of a flock of around 200 sheep. The problem with larger flocks ( up to 2OOO head in the summer alpine pastures) is that the sheep scatter into smaller groups; impossible for the dogs to protect. Wolves know this & have several stratagies to seperate the dogs from the sheep.
The protection dogs are efficient against stray dogs too but again it depends on the size of the flocks a pack of stray dogs can attack/scatter or send a large number of sheep over a cliff before the guard dogs can react.
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I'm sure you're right but that's not what I meant. What I meant was that of course there will be more killings by dogs than by wolves because simply because dogs are far more prevalent than wolves. If wolf numbers increase, then presumably the number killed by wolves will also go up (possibly equaling or even exceeding those killed by dogs) Or are wolf numbers higher there than I'm imagining?
To be honest, that's the main problem with guard dogs in general; wolves are highly intelligent and can usually find a way to get around them (or kill them outright) The advantage of the dogs is also because of the wolves intelligence; if one flock has guard dogs and another doesn't, they'll go for the easier unprotected flock.
Difficult to know the ratio dogs/wolves present & also the percentage of both that actually attack sheep, after all there are both dogs & wolves living in sheep rearing areas that never attack them................wolves tend to kill one or two animals at a time, unless in specific circumstances where the sheep can't escape, whereas dogs will attack a large number of sheep at a time & not always killing them outright nor do they kill for food as the packs are often formed by local & holiday goer's pets that are allowed to run free during the day.
We are on the Italian border and the wolves are on the other side of the mountains from us in Italy.
@Blacktomberwolf: I have never seen any flock of sheep as big as 2000 near to us. The landscape just does not allow that kind of 'flockage' it would be impossible to manage. The roads are too small to allow access to the high pastures unless they were moved in smaller flocks. Traditionally here it has been cows who have inhabited the upper pastures in summer, maybe because they are not so easy to attack as sheep, and again no more than forty at a time I would hazard a guess. Large herds of any animal up there would destroy the landscape for sure and the shepherds and farmers are ultra careful about preserving the alpages they have left. Thats why they are always on the move. Domestic dogs are banned from being up there, period.
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Domestic dogs (i.e. dogs straying from houses) were a problem when I was a kid in Australia. Took sheep, calves. We even had a pack go for the foals on our farm (my parents bred racehorses).
Local farmers banded together and hunted down one pack. Several of the dogs had tags on and as far as the owners concerned weren't 'stray'. Amazing how far they had travelled in a day to hunt (some were shot 10miles from their home).
PACA or Rhones Alpes ?
Possibly in your particular area tawny.
I don't suppose I have to explain 'transhumance' to you.. 
Mind you don't fall asleep while you're counting them
Ah but they do, or rather they maintain the totally artificial landscapes that are the alpine pastures.
Most are rented by the way.
No sorry that's not the reason, sheep & cattle are wanderers, they roam while eating. The shepherds move them up to higher pastures when there is no grass left in the lower ones, but that is to allow the sheep & cattle to feed rather than preserve the landscape.
True, tourist's dogs are not allowed in many National Parks & Natural reserves (to numerous to list here) even on a lead, but working dogs such as sheep & hunting dogs are allowed & of course stray dogs can't read.
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no wonder there are more wolves around and abouts
PACA or Rhones Alpes ?
Possibly in your particular area tawny.
Mind you don't fall asleep while you're counting them Ah but they do, or rather they maintain the totally artificial landscapes that are the alpine pastures. Most are rented by the way.
It's amazing how many owners who let their dogs roam, have no idea what they get up to. Many moons ago I had a German Shepherd who was pretty keen on hunting. One day I got into a converstion with a German chap & explained to him about my dog & that GSD's arn't supposed to have strong hunting intincts & he said to me " Any dog will hunt if it has the opportunity".......wise words indeed which have remained with me since.
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