Fire challenge - under water primitive fire!

[rich59]

In related thread:-

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/community/showthread.php?p=271585#post271585

an idea has evolved to lay down a slightly unusual challenge for anyone who wishes to have a go. I am pretty sure that this is possible in a number of ways, but I haven't yet had a go at any of them other than in my head. Anyone can be a "winner" if they achieve the aim. I am planning to make up some (simple) badges and certificates "Under water firelighter" for any successes. If you come up with a unique solution then you will get a slightly better badge and certificate.

The only valid reason for issuing this challenge is that if you can achieve this then you will have extended your fire lighting skills, so making it more likely you will succeed under less adverse condtions.

The Challenge: To light a fire by primitive means under water.

This needs a number of clarifications:-

Fire - this means a glowing coal, a momentary flame, or if you want to be really impressive then a sustained flame for one minute.

Primitive - This means friction (wood on wood), flint and steel, lens, or fire piston. Would be delighted to hear of successes by other means (chemical, compressed air pumps etc etc), They would get an "honourable mention" but it doesn't get the badge.

Under water:- This means either totally in water (could be tricky!), in a small air space under water (such as an upturned bowl, bucket or glass), or under a functioning waterfall with the water deflected by something (no assistance from someone else).

Evidence - a good description - with or without a photo or video - that is deemed likely to be achieved by someone else following your technique..

Oh, yes I suggest the referee's decision is final.

 

[Glen]

In related thread:-

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/community/showthread.php?p=271585#post271585
The only valid reason for issuing this challenge is that if you can achieve this then you will have extended your fire lighting skills, so making it more likely you will succeed under less adverse condtions.

Fire - this means a glowing coal, a momentary flame, or if you want to be really impressive then a sustained flame for one minute.

Primitive - This means friction (wood on wood), flint and steel, lens, or fire piston. Would be delighted to hear of successes by other means (chemical, compressed air pumps etc etc), They would get an "honourable mention" but it doesn't get the badge.

Under water:- This means either totally in water (could be tricky!), in a small air space under water (such as an upturned bowl, bucket or glass), or under a functioning waterfall with the water deflected by something (no assistance from someone else).

Evidence - a good description - with or without a photo or video - that is deemed likely to be achieved by someone else following your technique..

Oh, yes I suggest the referee's decision is final.

With that definition I'd go fo charcloth on a thick* flat piece of wood, glass bowl lowered ontop, to push the whole thing underwater, then use sunshine focused by a lens to produce an smoldering ember inside the bowl, have to wait till tommorrow ( presuming its sunny ) to give it a go but it seems the safest way to get to that far, could go for sustained flame by blowing bubbles into the bowl, ( through a hollow read, which should displace the heavier CO2.

*If the wood the charcloths floating on is too thin it'll be too low to the water surface and probably prone to being put out quickly by any CO2 produced during the initial smouldering stage.

 

[Glen]

Oh just had a brain wave of a 2nd possiblity using a fire piston.
Have tinder floating on piece of wood under large vessel pushed down into water.
Load fire piston in free air, place hands underwater and inside vessel, strike fire piston plunger, pull out and place ember produced on tinder, lift wood base with tinder higher into vessel and free air, blow into a flame using hollow read.

A much more primtive method as its not using glass Although you could try the first method with a shiny parabolic surface as the lens and a crystal bowl.

 

[oops56]

Now to me makes no sense you cant cook on it or get warm by it.Or all you bush guys to good at fire making and got northing else to do like get out in them woods lifes to short. I give up i am going outside and read a magazine

 

[rich59]

Now to me makes no sense you cant cook on it or get warm by it.Or all you bush guys to good at fire making and got northing else to do like get out in them woods lifes to short. I give up i am going outside and read a magazine

Ah, but Oops - a big part of bushcraft to me is in the imagination, thinking out a solution over a week or so that I then might get an hour or two later on to try out.

 

[Jodie]

Intriguing - though it does remind me of Endmol's "International King of Sports"!

I mean that in the nicest way though

 

[rich59]

Glen,

I think you have some excellent ideas there.

 

[xylaria]

This thread has really got my noggin going :thinkerg:

ME& mrX have been discussing this all morning. :BlueTeamE

So heres mine

Get some that photosynthsitic algae that lives in quartz rock from greenland along with the quartz.

Pack aglaefied quartz tightly into glass beer bottle.

Place beer bottle upside down in peat bog sediment at the bottom of river. I was thinking the bottom of the river Liffy (Dublin) was good place. You need somewhere that alot of marsh gas is produced.

Place waterproof electric torch on top of beer bottle.

Wait a very long time for the algae to photosythise a reasonable amount of oxygen and to be collected in the bottle. Change batteries on torch several times.

Shoot bottle at point blank range with a highest powered harpoon you can find A peizo-electric charge should spark through the quartz igniting the marsh gas with the oxygen.

Exit river Liffy vertically, followed by ignited marsh gas that is now burning in large plume.

Next step collect darwin award.

 

[Glen]

I think you have some excellent ideas there.

Thanks, comming from you that's a real compliment.

Fire piston ember was straight forward, it's a sealed unit so no water problems with starting it.

Now planning the easiest way to get it into a flame, so have a few questions.

Basically thinking of making a bamboo based oil lamp flaoting horizontally. A 2 section piece of bamboo with one section having a hole drilled near the middle junction( to be ontop when it's floating easily acheived by attaching a weight on the other bottom ) That compartment will be filled with the oil to be burned and a wick comming out the hole and drapping over to the other section.

Question 1 is what's the easieist igniting oil to use that would qualify, I guess that boils down to the lowest flash point oil.

The second section of bamboo to contain a ( hopefully ) small amount of starting tinder close to the middle with a larger hole ( or partial section ) removed from the top. This is to recieve the ember so has to be big enough for that. So a hot burning tinder ( crampball would probably be good but I don't have any )
That would be question 2

The other end of the tinder section to have a read inserted in and sealed with clay. This hopefully saves some of the problems of holding the lot underwater while trying to direct an air jet in the correct place.

Going slightly off topic. Packing a section of bamboo ( or similar ) with something that will keep an ember and keeping it smouldering would seem a good way of travelling through rain forest or a waterfall while carrying your fire with you. So seems to me the challenge has more than just an academic interest, it can have practical uses in a survival situation eg easy fire starting to dry off with the otherside of a water crossing. Hmm I may have just invented the Fire Snorkel

When crossing cold water, surely would be better to build a fire first while dry and have time/energy, cross with ember and some of the charred wood ( keeping that dry of course ) then use that to start a fire the other side. As opposed to try to start a fire from scratch while wet, exhausted and suffering possible manual impeedement through cold, especially as one would have to start looking for the reasonable material the other side before even attempting the fire.
Though in reasonable still water I can't see why not to float a small fire across on a small earth topped raft.

 

[rich59]

Fire piston ember was straight forward, it's a sealed unit so no water problems with starting it.

Cool. So are you saying that you actually got a fire piston to work while under water?

Question 1 is what's the easieist igniting oil to use that would qualify, I guess that boils down to the lowest flash point oil.

I don't know about low flash points but animal/ bird fat/ oil would certainly count. For the purposes of this challenge I would also allow olive, sunflower or peanut oils.

The second section of bamboo to contain a ( hopefully ) small amount of starting tinder close to the middle with a larger hole ( or partial section ) removed from the top. This is to recieve the ember so has to be big enough for that. So a hot burning tinder ( crampball would probably be good but I don't have any )
That would be question 2

I didn't quite get the question

Going slightly off topic. Packing a section of bamboo ( or similar ) with something that will keep an ember and keeping it smouldering would seem a good way of travelling through rain forest or a waterfall while carrying your fire with you. So seems to me the challenge has more than just an academic interest, it can have practical uses in a survival situation eg easy fire starting to dry off with the otherside of a water crossing. Hmm I may have just invented the Fire Snorkel

When crossing cold water, surely would be better to build a fire first while dry and have time/energy, cross with ember and some of the charred wood ( keeping that dry of course ) then use that to start a fire the other side. As opposed to try to start a fire from scratch while wet, exhausted and suffering possible manual impeedement through cold, especially as one would have to start looking for the reasonable material the other side before even attempting the fire.
Though in reasonable still water I can't see why not to float a small fire across on a small earth topped raft.

An interesting thought to consider how to take fire through wet conditions. I don't feel the urge to issue a formal challenge (!) but interesting to consider how long an ember could be kept alive while it and its "primitive" coverings were immersed in water. Also if carrying an ember in torrential rain conditions how best to do it.

 

[xylaria]

Question 1 is what's the easieist igniting oil to use that would qualify, I guess that boils down to the lowest flash point oil.
.

Linseed oil stored in a jar with a rag in the top and put in the sun can spontainously combust like a petrol bomb if thats any help. It still needs an oxygen supply though.

Nearly every idea I have come up with is more along the lines of bushcrafting exposives rather than making controlable fire. The increased pressure under water is to useful a resource to waste! If I use friction as the ignition does it still qualify?

 

[Glen]

Cool. So are you saying that you actually got a fire piston to work while under water?

Yes presuming inside a bucket upside down in my bath counts.

I didn't quite get the question

I'm looking for something that smouders very hot, the idea would seem be to find something that smouders at a temperature above the flashpoint of the intended oil then introduce the soaked wick into it.

 

[Glen]

Linseed oil stored in a jar with a rag in the top and put in the sun can spontainously combust like a petrol bomb if thats any help. It still needs an oxygen supply though.

Thanks I'll keep that one in mind, I've found a reasonable list here.
http://www.dreamingearth.com/flashpoints.html
bearing in mind lamp oil ( kerosene/parafin oil ) flashpoint is aroung 85-100C some of those 40-50C flashpoint oils would seem worth trying in SMALL quantites

 

[xylaria]

MrX had an idea of using common oxisidizing reagents to fill the up turned water filled bucket with oxygen. Things can be burnt without oxygen in chemistry it is called pyrolsis or charcoal burning to everyone else. So maybe thats an option.

Glen has kind licked the ignition thing with his fire piston. :You_Rock_

To burn an oil in a sealed chamber it would have to be either at high pressure or have alot volitile compounds in the air chamber. Internal combustion engines use these princaples. High pressure is easy under water as you just go deeper. I know naff all about cars and engines can you tell?

The combustible gas and oxygen mix will go bang and Glen cant practice it the bath safely like he can will the oil sitting on the water.

OO OO I got it. Ok it is a bit nasty. Eat loads of chick pea curry. The next day sit in deep bath with bucket. Replace water in bucket with natural gas. Use fire steel to light gas. A cloth soaked in linseed oil might pyrolise in these conditions, but i think you would need alot of gas.

 

[rich59]

Xylara,

Blinking heck. The little gray cells seem to be working over time on this one. Should have guessed you would come up with a biological idea with your photosynthetic algae.

I have a question on linseed and some of the listed volatile substances. Are any of them primitive in that have been available for 100s or 1000s of years? I have a feeling linseed might count.

DO BE CAREFUL WITH ANY VOLATILE STUFF!!!!!

 

[rich59]

Glen,

Fab re the fire piston.

Those volatile oils - DO BE CAREFUL! I read it that you are trying to avoid any traditional tinder by going straight from coal to flame. Interesting idea. Any of them produced or producable by primitive means/ era? Otherwise you might consider a more traditional tinder where an increased air flow works. A bent reed might deliver a decent air flow?

Or, if you could get xylara's ideas of high oxygen atmosphere then don't forget the physics that the test for pure oxygen is that it will relight a glowing splint.

 

[Glen]

Glen,

Those volatile oils - DO BE CAREFUL! I read it that you are trying to avoid any traditional tinder by going straight from coal to flame. Interesting idea. Any of them produced or producable by primitive means/ era? Otherwise you might consider a more traditional tinder where an increased air flow works. A bent reed might deliver a decent air flow?

Or, if you could get xylara's ideas of high oxygen atmosphere then don't forget the physics that the test for pure oxygen is that it will relight a glowing splint.

If I can get hold of any of the oils I will be using very small amounts, maybe just pre soaking the wick and then using sunflower oil in the main resevoir. I'm trying to avoid too much tinder as it tends to burst into flame and spread quickly but that'll use up the available oxygen very quickly. Something the size of a candle flame I think there's more chance of keeping the airflow high enough to replace that which is being used up.

If you float a tea light on water and cover with a beer glass you see just how fast that uses up oxygen but how fast the water rises to replace it. That's turning oxygen to CO2 so I recon that you will have to replace air at something like 2-4 times that speed, probably give that a go with a rubber tube into the glass a few times to get a better idea.

Another primitive version could be a tallow candle ( maybe in birchbark container with stone in bottom to keep stable in water ) with a small domed depression around the wick and a little volatile oil in that depression to kick start it.

I'll have to look at how the citrus oils can be produced ( Lemon, lime, grapefruit, sweet orange ) to qualify, I'm guessing distilled alcohol wouldn't else could try that itself.

Can't think of a quick primitive way to up the oxygen content but holding the bucket over some pondweed for a few days might help, pity I don't even have a garden.

 

[xylaria]

MrX has just come into the room and said "I can do bushcraft me, I'll just pack a quick fit chemistry kit, pressure bell and suba gear first"

Cigarettes burn by pyrolisis, peat can also burn by pyrolisis, and produces combustable gas as it does it. If you make a bow drill using rubber like bike inner tubes would it work to make an ember? I have read somewhere here that canoist use bike inner tube as a water proof firestarter. So I if you make an ember attached to reed then suck on the reed, maybe it could work. It would still need to be done in air bubble.

As for primative sub-aqua cooking some icelandic must cooked tried fish boiled using under sea pyroclastic flow at sometime or other. Whether they lived to tell the tale is another matter. Definatly steam vents have been used to cook food.

 

[xylaria]

So I if you make an ember attached to reed then suck on the reed, maybe it could work. It would still need to be done in air bubble.
QUOTE]

This is more likely to give you carbon monoxide poisoning, and a really unhealthy dose of cyclic hydrocarbons than make fire isn't it. Strange the things you realise when you sleep on it.

 

[rich59]

I have now succeeded with the lens method. I took a glass jug - 2/3 filled with water. Then I sealed a piece of char cloth in a small screw top jar with the char positioned in clear space with a stone. I then plunged the jar under the water. Finally I focused the sun's rays through air/ glass/ water/ glass/ air onto the char cloth. The char cloth changed to a gray colour. On taking it out of the water and openning it up to more air I confirmed it was still alight.


I have an idea for a friction method.....