Fire by chemical means

[ally]

apart from pottasium permanganate and glycerin do you guys n girls know any others?


and what is iirr relating to thermite :?:

 

[sargey]

potassium permanganate and antifreeze is the only one i've been able to repeat. i use it as a filler for firelighting talks with scouts if they get through other stuff too quickly.

IIRC is "If I Remember Correctly" in other places, looking at the context, perhaps IIRR is "If I Remember Rightly"?

one that i've only recently worked out is YMMV, "Your mileage May Vary" others include IMO or IMHO, In My Opinion or In My Honest Opinion.

cheers, and.

 

[alick]

Household Potassium permanganate crystals (25g / £1.20 local chemist) mixed 1:1 or whatever with castor sugar - won't go up on it's own but catches a firesteel spark a treat.

I bought PP thinking multiple uses - also an antiseptic or dye marker for water or snow, but lots of warnings not to contaminate waterways with it, so the dye marker idea is strictly for survival situations.

The other classic - sodium chlorate crystals (weedkiller) is even worse for the health.

 

[stevec]

most sodium chlorate has a fire retardant in these days to stop it going bang! had a thought though maybe if you mixed potasium permanganate with aluminium filings, and gave it a start with a spark onto some magnesium shavings, it should go a treat. i'm assuming the same principles as thermit (iron oxide and aluminium)
just watch out for the fumes though, as they are not going to be nice.
steve

 

[sargey]

i think you need about 9:1 PP to sugar ratio, then crush the mix together. i've seen it done on the tele but never managed it myself, i didnt realise the portions were at the time. haven't tried in ages.

cheers, and.

 

[Kev P]

9:1 is the figure always quoted, but anything between that and 1:1 should work. You do need to grind it really firmly to get it to work, but work it does.

 

[ESpy]

If you're going to grind things, please grind them separately, not together. In a non-sparking pestle. You're putting enough energy into the process to trigger some of the more twitchy mixtures, and static can also trigger them.

For amusement value, go and have a look on Google for triboelectric charges...

I still have all my own fingers :-D

 

[Kev P]

If you're going to grind things, please grind them separately, not together. In a non-sparking pestle. You're putting enough energy into the process to trigger some of the more twitchy mixtures, and static can also trigger them.

You're absolutely right Peter, but with potassium permanganate and sugar that is what you are after. Grinding the two together vigorously you can get the mixture to ignite spontaneously without needing a fire steel etc.

I would, however, advise against trying this indoors and use relatively small amounts, no more than a tablespoon.

 

[Ed]

Grinding the two together vigorously you can get the mixture to ignite spontaneously

Now theres a tip for those having problems with a fire bow

Ed

 

[alick]

Sargey, Kev,

You're dead right - 9:1's what I've seen recommended too. You can't go wrong by having more oxidant to less fuel. I tried the 1:1 mix 'cos sugar's a lot cheaper than PP. :-D

The advantage of castor sugar - icing would be even better - is that it's ready ground. Just stir together and put on top of your other tinder before sparking.
I don't see chemical starters as practical for regular use, really a curiousity, but for someone who wanted to, you could carry the two components in one of those double ended salt & pepper things and mix as needed.

 

[ESpy]

...but with potassium permanganate and sugar that is what you are after.

True - but I had visions of this being done indoors as advance prep for firelighting...

For rapid firelightig, Mg ribbon in a screw of paper with a small amount of KMnO4 goes up readily. Very readily.

(and before anyone says - yes, I do know about the use of lox - not salmon, Chris - on barbecues)

 

[Andy]

has anyone managed it with normal weed killer, its in a SAS book but i haven't had any luck what ratio should i use for that?

 

[maddave]

has anyone managed it with normal weed killer, its in a SAS book but i haven't had any luck what ratio should i use for that?

Like Steve C said above Sodium Chlorate is probably the weedkiller referred to, and in the UK has an additive that specifically reduces it's incendary properties. However in some of the worlds poorer countries mix it with a little antifreeze and it'll go up nicely in a few seconds

 

[acw_akkermans]

Another "chemical" way of lighting a fire very easily, is carrying a nine-volts battery and some steelwool. as soon as you place the steelwool on the + and the - it will burst into flame.

 

[ditchfield]

Vapourised alcohol with a high voltage electric current passed through it goes off with a bang. :-D I realise this isn't particulary practical for outdoor use, but its fun.

I carry a piece of magnesium ribbon taped to the outside of a vial of lifeboat matches in my pouch survival kit which could be used for signaling or to give extra heat in firelighting.

 

[sargey]

a nine-volts battery and some steelwool.

just don't drop a battery onto an entire industrial size roll of steel wool, i was able to witness this slight mishap once, while demonstrating improvised firelighting techniques to scouts. there's no way to put it out. :shock:

cheers, and.

 

[Stuart]

the mixture ratio for potassium permanganate and sugar does not really need to be very exact, just mix pile of PP with a smaller pile of sugar

anything from 1:1 to 9:1 will work but the intensity of flame and burn time will vary

it can be ignited in a number of ways, if the mixture is placed on a rough flat hard surface (a paving slab is ideal) and rubbed into the surface with the back of a spoon it will spark and ignite

adding other chemicals such as glycerine will cause the pile to smoke and then spontaneously ignite, adding antifreeze has the same effect due to the chemicals it contains

potassium chlorate and Sodium Chlorate when mixed with sugar (or other fuel) will produce a flash powder which may be used for fire lighting, but be warned that you are now dealing with explosives!!!!! :shock:

do not try to light these mixtures by grinding them!!!! having seen a lab table destroyed by the resulting explosion of a potassium chlorate mixture
i can advise you that it will do you considerable harm

all sodium chlorate sold as weed killer in this country is mixed with a fire retardant, if you look carefully at the weed killer you will notice that some of the grains are round and some are crystalline if you separate these using a sieve then you will have a pile of sodium chlorate and a pile of fire retardant

many people have given up trying to ignite potassium permanganate after experimenting using the PP that comes in survival kits manufactured by BCB international

The PP in these survival kits will not ignite by friction (even though fire lighting is one of the reasons why it is included in the kit) this is due to BCB international using the wrong grade of PP in their kits
Originally they used flow grade PP (to aid filling of the containers) when this became unavailable from their manufactures they changed to a poor technical grade :roll:

Flow grade PP and technical grade PP do not work well for ignition by friction and will not burn very well or for as long when lit

 

[Tony]

I've found that PP from over the chemists counter is good if you get the fine crystals or powder, the crystals may need a bit of grinding to get them finer but on the whole they work well enough. They also usually question whoever is buying it which is good as it keeps it from being messed about with by kids

 

[sargey]

the only pharmacies i've found that sell it are in tescos. you'll have to ask the pharmacist, i usually get blank looks from counter staff. typical cost is 99p.

cheers, and.

 

[Adi007]

I got my last lot from Boots ... I'll have to try the big T next time. Thanks Sargey! :-D


Adi

the only pharmacies i've found that sell it are in tescos. you'll have to ask the pharmacist, i usually get blank looks from counter staff. typical cost is 99p.

cheers, and.