Farmer sprays cyclist wild camper.

[Pattree]

This ^^^^^^^^

These days it’s my car or a dog that will give me away not my camp site.

 

[TeeDee]

So is the gist that if you can do something without express permission of another ,as long as the other is oblivious to the act its permissible?

 

[Broch]

So is the gist that if you can do something without express permission of another ,as long as the other is oblivious to the act its permissible?

Including s**tt**g in the hedge?

 

[Pattree]

Nope.

 

[TeeDee]

Including s**tt**g in the hedge?

Broch - If thats pre-requisite for answering , don't let my question corral you.
Answer it both ways , with Jobby, without Jobby.

 

[Broch]

The permutations get complex Above the tree/wall line in the mountains has always been considered acceptable to camp without permission providing one leaves no trace. On farmland lower than that, permission should be sought IMO and everything packed in should be packed out including the 'Jobbies'.

At what point does a piece of land become too small for people to assume they have a right to camp?

 

[TeeDee]

The permutations get complex Above the tree/wall line in the mountains has always been considered acceptable to camp without permission providing one leaves no trace. On farmland lower than that, permission should be sought IMO and everything packed in should be packed out including the 'Jobbies'.

At what point does a piece of land become too small for people to assume they have a right to camp?

Is there a protected " right "to camp or just a cultural assumption its permissible?

 

[Broch]

In Scotland there is a general right to camp with certain restrictions (not within sight of dwelling, not within a certain distance from a road etc.). In England and Wales there is no general right and all camping on private land without permission is trespass.

 

[Pattree]

I used to be very good at apologising on the rare occasions that I was ever confronted. Landowners can tell you so much about the countryside that you are in if you can get them on your side.

If a landowner never knew I’d been there and my stay had no effect on them or their property: was I there at all?

For me, stealth camping was just a few hours sleep with a drink and a hot water bottle. ( Two more advantages of Winter camping: more dark and less stock) Breakfast was down the road or further along the track sitting on a rock or leaning against my pack by a wall.

 

[slowworm]

If you knew I'd camped I'd call you an expert tracker as I leave no trace, pitch late and leave early.

These days there's a surprising number of people with theremal spotters etc so I wouldn't be surprised if you're noticed by someone.

I would rephrase the question, I wonder how many land owners know there are people camping but don't trouble them?

 

[Chris]

I always think in these situations I'd probably have a little cash on me so that if stumbled upon by the farmer/landowner, a small token of gratitude could be offered along with assurances of leaving no trace.

 

[Ystranc]

The text mentions two legitimate camp sites within a kilometre of each other, perhaps he moved on to one of these in order to use the showers afterwards.
If the farmer had been intending to spread the whole field then I would say it was just the cycle-camper’s bad luck to be there at the wrong place and time but because the farmer deliberately paused to cover the cycle-camper and his possessions before leaving again it could be considered to be a form of assault. That said, as a landowner my sympathy lies with the farmer. It seems like a gross overreaction but you must consider the cumulative effect of the same thing happening week after week, verbal abuse, cleaning up after litter louts, broken glass, animals allowed to stray… it wears you down to the point where it’s easy to get things out of perspective. You cannot take any one incident in isolation, there is a cumulative effect of the intrusion and abuse that we face in the countryside…it adds insult to injury to have someone standing in your garden yelling “right to roam” in your face (and I do mean my actual garden, they were looking in through my kitchen window as I made my first coffee of the day)

 

[TeeDee]

I used to be very good at apologising on the rare occasions that I was ever confronted. Landowners can tell you so much about the countryside that you are in if you can get them on your side.

If a landowner never knew I’d been there and my stay had no effect on them or their property: was I there at all?

For me, stealth camping was just a few hours sleep with a drink and a hot water bottle. ( Two more advantages of Winter camping: more dark and less stock) Breakfast was down the road or further along the track sitting on a rock or leaning against my pack by a wall.

Yes.
You were.

I'm thinking of other instances and situations where this kind of thinking could be applied.

 

[Suffolkrafter]

Whole thing sounds like a deficit of common sense and decency on both sides.

 

[Pattree]

Yes.
You were.

I'm thinking of other instances and situations where this kind of thinking could be applied.

Like the time you did 80 on the motorway and got away with it?

Or the day you had that 4” knife in your pocket when you were out shopping?

 

[TeeDee]

Like the time you did 80 on the motorway and got away with it?

Or the day you had that 4” knife in your pocket when you were out shopping?

Don't get me wrong - Yes I've done those things.

But I've also held myself accountable knowing and admitting I have done them.
Your " If a landowner never knew I’d been there and my stay had no effect on them or their property: was I there at all?" Seems to provide a personal pardon against trespass just due to another parties ignorance.

If you left your car in a garage for a service over a few days and several week later discovered the garage owners had been offering it out as a courtesy car for a few of those days would you not feel umbrage?

Broch has some lovely woodland- I would hate to think people would use that woodland without express permission and use the same ' No harm , No Foul ' mental attitude.

 

[Pattree]

Leon does indeed use my car to go for parts or chips when it’s in for service. That’s just a rural garage for you . I’ve known four generations of his family.

If the landowner was entirely ignorant of my visit and totally unaffected by it then there are philosophers, mathematicians and recently physicists who might say that in the landowner’s universe, I was not there. I don’t presume that this thread is taking that line of thinking.

 

[TeeDee]

Leon does indeed use my car to go for parts or chips when it’s in for service. That’s just a rural garage for you . I’ve known four generations of his family.

But you are AWARE of it. Thats the part you seem to be brushing over.

 

[Pattree]

See edit.

 

[Broch]

So, you go on holiday and inadvertently leave a door open. I go in, use your bathroom, sleep in your bed, make sure there's no sign of my visit, and you're happy that occurred?

This argument/discussion has been going on for hundreds of years; we'll not solve it on this forum