Falkniven f1 with scandi grind

[TheGreenMan]

I see your point, but then id have a carving knife for carving, a knife for food prep, a knife for chopping and a knife for cutting string.

But i dont want to carry 10 knives so i prefere to compromise and not have serrations that cut string really well and not have a big heavy knife that chops really well. But have a knife that can cut string all be it at compromise and a knive that can split wood again at a compromise.

Imho of course

At the end of the day, my point is; If you have a hatchet or an axe with you, all you need for everything else is a small utility knife, and practically any Mora is more than up to the job <chuckle>

Everything else is just fun, or for a specialised task.

Best regards,
Paul.

 

[Neil1]

I put a different (scandi type) grind on my F1 a couple of years back, it works very well and is a whole lot easier to sharpen in the field. I did the same modification on my Gene Ingram for the same reason.
The F1 is a superb outdoor knife straight out of the box, but as with all things, you have to "tweek" them to get it right for your own personsl needs and the tasks you are going to perform.
Neil

 

[TheGreenMan]

I put a different (scandi type) grind on my F1 a couple of years back, it works very well and is a whole lot easier to sharpen in the field. I did the same modification on my Gene Ingram for the same reason.
The F1 is a superb outdoor knife straight out of the box, but as with all things, you have to "tweek" them to get it right for your own personsl needs and the tasks you are going to perform.
Neil

Hello Neil1,

In the interests of learning, may I ask what method of sharpening was giving you problems with these blades, when 'in the field'?

Best regards,
Paul.

 

[OldJimbo]

Seriously though, can you tell me specifically how it disappointed you

In my case I had an F1 with the original secondary bevel. I also had a few more highly touted survival knives, including a folder. I'd made great deals but it added up to a LOT of money. Off I went down the coast trail to try all this new stuff.
Now this place was pretty wet - but nowhere near as bad as what I regularly go out in. No way could I get fuzzies fine enough to get a fire going with, though I sure didn't have trouble prying apart wood (I'd deliberately left the hatchet at home).
I spent a lot of time trying to get a fire started, and even tried pounding wood fine with a rock. Eventually I remembered that I had a Mora tucked away in the pack. Soon I was sitting by a fire contemplating survival knife grind theory. I could have walked another quarter mile and found tinder which would have worked with the other knives, but I had chosen an exact spot where everything was going to take place.

I exchanged lots of email with Peter at Falkniven, who is a great guy - and I learned lots about the F1. I'm not disappointed in the knife, which is specifically designed for use in a certain set of conditions. None of the other more expensive stuff worked either. I was disappointed in myself because silly tests such as slicing paper aren't enough. I should have been able to predict how the blades would work based on bevel angle and experience. Then again theorizing can be silly as with my initial predictions on grinding..

I got more blades including more Falknivens to really learn about prying apart and splitting wood. This is the main rationale behind heavy duty knives as pushed on some forums. After a couple of years of experimenting in different seasons, I decided that I wouldn't write about it all because there are too many dangers, and a person either spends a lot of time practising in safe conditions or is in for a world of hurt.

So if disappointed in anything, I'm disappointed with concepts such as buy this and you'll be able to...... Maybe any knife or sharp rock will work in the conditions tested. It can take a lot of work and experience to know how to make something work in other conditions. That sort of stuff comes up and may discourage a person who gets a tool which doesn't work for them in their conditions. Often their inclination will be to believe that they are the problem. I have concepts too - but I've sure put in a lot of hours helping people who had trouble making them work.

I'm not disappointed in my now partially reground F1 - and it'll get better with more work. VG10 is great steel from an edge holding/ resharpening tradeoff point of view. It works well for scraping jobs where other stainless steels show weakness. Whether I'll get better with more work remains to be seen...

 

[British Red]

Red, I know you don’t like the handle, and you don’t like the thickness of the blade, and you don’t like the grind, but apart from that what’s wrong with it? <chuckle>

Seriously though, can you tell me specifically how it disappointed you (I’m genuinely interested, and not looking for conflict)?

<snip>

Best regards,
Paul.

Paul,

Leaving aside the poor handle, over thick spine and grind, I dislike the point geometry too. I'm far from fussy, but the ability to "bore" and fine slice is what I want from a knife point. The nature of the point on the F1 really limits its capability in that deaprtment. As Jimbo says, its far from great at shaving feather sticks. Its not great as a wood working tool due to its grind. Its thick spine makes it cumbersome for game work...I could go on and on.

Suffice it to say, it seems to lend itself as a tiny axe with the handle at the wrong angle, pry bar and firesteel striker. I have better tools to accomplish any of those jobs. I would vastly prefer to have a good SAK in a survival situation. I ahve a number of knives optimised for different tasks (food prep, wood work, skinning etc.) but I just can't work out why I would choose the F1 over another knife for any given task. For general "wild camping", I'll take my Bushman TZ or my Axelson, for skinning and game prep, my Joker or Grohman, For "sling in my pack and use and abuse" - one of my several Frosts. I'm not decrying the F1 - I'm sure it fulfils its design purpose superbly. I'm just not an airman and I have my own needs (click for a better view)

And here are the carrots Julienne

Red

 

[Neil1]

Paul,
In the field I use a sharpening board and the modified grind is a lot easier on the board than the convex, also, as I said I tweek kit for my intended use, yes the convex is a superbly robust, but for woodcraft, skinning, shaving feathers, carving trap triggers,etc the modified grind is better. I don't have to punch my way thru many aircraft hulls.
When I say easier to sharpen, I mean with cold, numb, wet hands, when your tired (when accidents happen), to lay it on the board on an easy angle and produce a razor edge in a few strokes makes a lot more sense.
With 25 years as a chef under my belt, I use knives a lot, and you get used to re-touching the edge on a blade a lot. As a survivalist I'm used to putting blades thru their paces, multi-tools, folders, etc, and have tried most on the market (and over 25 years thats quite a few) and the F1 beats virtually everything else out there.
I have had an F1 for about the last eight years, my original was sold on and I have a blade blank with a custom handle now, still a superb knife.
My one fault (which is purely personal) is that it is too heavy to carry round your neck for extended periods, but that is the only fault.
As I said all my kit is modified (ask anyone who as met me), my boots are my design, my smock-bergen-hammock-stove are all home-made, this is my life not my hobby and so my kit developes as my life changes.
Recently my knife changed too, working for Bisonbushcraft I was given a "one-off" by Roger, a scandi-grind in 01 tool steel and changed slightly to meet my requirements. This to me, is the ideal bushcrafter and has been my companion on all my course/adventures thru the year.
If you don't want to pay out for a custom kife, but do want a very good bushcraft knife, get an F1 and customize it, change the grind, the handle, the sheath, personalize it. Look at what your REAL uses for it are, and shape it in that way.
I hope this answers your question.
N

 

[TheGreenMan]

Thank you Jimbo, Red and Neil, for the three replies above. I have learned much of interest.

Shinken, it seems that the Bacho metal files I bought a few weeks ago, may have been a timely purchase. Having read the last three posts, I'm tempted to give your proposal a try on one of my F1s.

Red, those are the strangest carrots, julienned, batoned, or otherwise, I've ever seen <chuckle>

Neil, I've marvelled on several occasions, at your custom made clothing (Bought my smock from Bison, by the way) and the modifications to your kit. If you’d like to add a photo of the knife you mention that was gifted to you, in your gallery, I'd be very interested to see that.

And I hope I never have to use either of my F1s in connection with an aircraft.

Best regards to all,
Paul.

 

[OldJimbo]

Busy and exciting times here. Really - while I was down at the hospital yesterday with one of my students we had a lockdown due to a grizzly trying to get in. I guess that's what happens when hospital food is improved, or maybe the notice about no dogs allowed is too specific...

Anyway we haven't really gotten to the bottom of scandi/convex. And it does matter if people are going to put money into knives and want satisfaction. As we're seeing, it's not a great feeling if you get a knife which is well made but doesn't suit your methods. I've said most of it before, but let's try to put things into perspective as we go.

To my mind a scandi works well because you use the wide single bevel to slice fuzzy sticks and carve. The flat blade side sticks up and out of the way. The effect of this is that you are whittling with a knife with an "apparently" narrower blade. This follows the contours of the stick etc.
A fully convexed blade will do the same, except you don't have the bevel as a guide. Some people have no problem with this - others have lots of problems.
The F1 has a narrow steep convexed edge bevel on a flat grind blade. That can work well if held precisely and used on some dry woods. Used on poor/wet woods it might not work at all.
My machetes have an extremely wide flat and thin blade with a convex starting 1" behind the edge. You sure can't follow curvy contours with that. Well then you split a big branch or block and use the machete on the long flat surface. I use 4-6'x3" branches split down the middle. Then I use the machete two handed to make huge piles of fine fuzzies. I push it down the branch at 45 degrees and it really slices. Now my other wide thin bladed knifes like the Cold Steel Master Hunter, Hudson Bay etc have all been ground by me with convexes to replace the secondary bevels. For making fuzzies, flat wood superb/round sticks poor. There's no way around that.

Contention One
I have a lot of Scandi blades by many makers. I've seen precisely two which were perfectly ground and they were both made by Nick Wheeler. It makes no sense for me for people to extoll the virtues of the scandi when I don't believe most have seen a proper grind in action. By now people with as many Scandi ground blades as me have their blood boiling. I don't expect people to accept statements, though. It has to be seen. And it can be seen for the price of a couple of identical Moras and Red's sharpening kit.
Take one Mora and a large sheet of fine emery paper on a properly flat surface. First rub the blade sides on the emery. You'll see that the scratching on the blade is not continuous. The blade flats are concave from factory grinding. Rub on emery until the blade sides are flat - as shown by scratches being continuous. Now you need them to be returned to a polished state using finer emery and buffing compound on cardboard. At the end of an hour's work you have a blade that LOOKS exactly as you started - but it isn't the same IN USE. Now lay the bevels flat on the emery and start on them. You'll see that they are slightly concave ground too. Rub until they are flat, taking care to keep the bevels flat to the emery. As you go you will see that the wire edge which develops isn't continuous. The edge wasn't straight either. Once edge bevels are properly flat, then polish them too.
You'll have noticed something very important as you did all that. The shoulders of the bevels were uneven. Now they aren't!
If you have done things properly and carefully, you now have a perfect Scandi grind. I would be shocked beyond belief if this knife didn't beat the second Mora in every area of performance - and by more than a slightly noticeable degree. If you have to work in tough wet conditions on poor wood the difference will be shocking. If you have to batton the knife through tough wood the difference will be more shocking.

I've been testing this for a couple of years, so I'm confident that if you've worked carefully you will see the difference. If you do then you might want to lightly rub the blade flats of other Scandis on fine emery. A few light scratches will soon tell whether the flats are really flat and even. If the blade was ground on a belt grinder it's more likely to be flat but it may not be even. A perfectly straight edge and just as important even bevel shoulders make a huge diference.

Contention Two - Some convexing can show further gains.

Repeat the flattening work on the second Mora. Don't stop until it matches the first in performance. Get the flats flat, the shoulders even and the edge straight before continuing. No shortcuts.
Put a thick newspaper under the emery, and rub the blade flats and bevels as before. This will give a convex that's even, but so slight that it cannot readily be noticed. Yep, both flats and bevels are slightly convexed. Polish.
Now you have a blade which still looks identical to when you started if you've polished out the scratches. I believe that you will see some improvement over flat sides and bevels, but it'll be slight. It might be very worthwhile and show up far more on tough wet wood and edge holding - but it will be difficult to determine in normal conditions.
Put emery on newspaper again. Place blade flat on emery and rock back and forth between flat and bevel. Try to establish the mid point of the angle of rocking. When you are sure that you can establish the angle consistently for both sides, then rub a little to round the shoulder. Let's say 5-10 mins. Repeat on the other side. Re-polish.
I believe that you will now see an enormous difference on the way the blade moves through tough wood in deep cuts and batonning. You will also have lost the crisp and beautiful shoulder line that you had put on before, if prettiness matters to you.

Contention Three - more convex might be better or it might not.

If you've had luck and worked hard then you should have seen the predicted results. Clearly if material with more give to it, such as a rubber pad is placed under the emery, then more convex is possible. More rounding of the shoulders is more easily achieved, will help the blade move through tough media - and won't change the woodworking characteristics.
I can definitely say that the more convexing applied, the more easily the blade will move through tough media. I've fully convexed Moras which is REALLY time consuming to get correct and even, despite having a belt grinder. It took lots of hand work to finish. What I can't say is how more convexing will work for others. If a person holds the blade angle consistently, then they'll be very pleased. With more convex, though, it's far more likely that at first the blade won't be held at a precise angle and the added curvature of the convex will make things more difficult.
We're right back at the situation where one person could pick up the convexed Mora and declare it the best fuzzy whittler ever. And another person picks it up and every fuzzy is uneven and breaks - simply because they have difficulty keeping a consistent angle.

So now we've added the possibility of a lot of work and a convexed scandi to the mix.

 

[British Red]

Damn you are good Jimbo,

I've spent many an evening reading your website and I still learn every time you post! I've adapted the trick above a little though! I now use a magic marker on the bevel of a scandy and hone it off. If theres "pools" of ink left, the bevel has "pits" or concave elements as you describe. I was a mazed the first time I tried it - a good 2cm dip was present. Took some work to get rid of but the difference was astounding!

I'll stick with the well set up scandi though - I find it so easy to keep it sharp!

Red

 

[OldJimbo]

And there's no reason not to want to stay with a scandi. I would be incredulous, though, if flattening the blade sides didn't make a huge difference - and that costs nothing but work. With polishing the blade will look exactly like original - except with perfect bevel shoulder lines. And if you can then live without those crisp lines, rounding the shoulders is a great idea. The first deep cut on wood should show a difference, though of course shallow cuts to make fine fuzzies won't, because there isn't then any pressure on the shoulders.
For sure it's tough to see how flattening the blade sides could affect anything if the bevels have been finished properly, and it is a lot of work. Bet you see a difference, though!

 

[TheGreenMan]

Busy and exciting times here...

...So now we've added the possibility of a lot of work and a convexed scandi to the mix.

Masterly, pure magic, Jimbo. Thank you.

Best regards,
Paul.

 

[Shinken]

highly experienced designer/knife user chose as what they considered as the best for it’s intended use

I seem to remember falkniven saying that one of the reasons thay made it a thick convex is because you can thin it if you want, but if they made it a thinner convex you couldnt thicken it.

So i really needed about 10 poll options

Keep it as is

scandi

flat grind

Scandi slightly convexed

thin convex

Chisel ground not possible of course

sharpened spine

Hollow grind

AND

Serrated

 

[British Red]

Hollow ground ?

 

[TheGreenMan]

I seem to remember falkniven saying that one of the reasons thay made it a thick convex is because you can thin it if you want, but if they made it a thinner convex you couldnt thicken it...

That’s a startlingly reasonable idea. And I’m rather embarrassed to realise that that never occurred to me <blush> (I have done my own rather humble modifications to the grinds of Moras, slight modifications to an F1, and I convexed the secondary bevel on my Spyderco UKPK, the later being a particular success).

I think with your revised list of poll options, you may have hit on something ‘huge’. This could be the solution for that question that gets posted often; ‘What’s the ULTIMATE bushcraft knife?’ (I never tire of this question or the pages of suggestions that normally follow).

If you could fabricate a blade with a 100mm of the blade dedicated to each of those grinds, you could market it as the ‘Bushcraft Sword’. I imagine trade would be brisk! <chuckle>

Best regards,
Paul.

PS: Not wishing to get embroiled in more controversy (This is probably due to the fact that a chap can only each so many slices of Humble Pie in any given week <chuckle>) or indeed to initiate it, but the S1 produces lovely curled shavings of wood. It also can joint West Country corn fed chicken (with a little help from a Gränsfors) better than any of my kitchen knives, as last night’s Coq au Vin paid testament

 

[Shinken]

Falkniven could well have said that after lots of people said to them that they thought the grind was a little thick. Who knows.

 

[TheGreenMan]

Falkniven could well have said that after lots of people said to them that they thought the grind was a little thick. Who knows.

Indeed.

I suppose that a person with the requisite skills and experience would know that thinning of the blade might improve performance for a specific task, and one that is important to any given user. My guess is this is how Peter would think, and that he would leave it to the individual to realise this option (Hence no prompting from him in some form of official statement).

There was a thread started a few weeks ago on one of the forums by someone who proposed the idea of Fällkniven producing a ‘bushcraft’ knife. Peter was of the opinion that this was already covered by the existing range of knives, and so expressed disinterest. Which I felt was a pity, as I’d spent the previous few months fantasising about the very idea that had been proposed.

Having read the thread, I spent a very enjoyable couple of hours making some drawings of my fantasy Fällkniven. I was rather pleased with the results, and think it would fit very well into the Fällkniven range.

I’m thinking of taking the project one stage further by producing some computer simulations of the design using a 3D modelling software application, with a few alternative options for handles and sheaths etc, and sending the 'renders' off in the post to him. Not with any realistic hope of him taking up the idea, but just for fun. And Peter does have the very agreeable character trait, of changing his mind about a decision that he has made, having given a proposal further thought.

I very much regret that I wasn’t interested in the bushcraft thing, at the time when the Wilkinson Sword Woodlore was in production, as this I understand was a very affordable knife.

I definitely think that there is room in the market for a quality, affordable production knife in the spear-point idiom. And I was rather excited to learn that Sal Glesser of Spyderco has taken up the challenge. I think that such a knife would be a big commercial success.

It’ll be interesting to see how the Spyderco project works out.

Best regards,
Paul.

 

[Shinken]

I could make a knife to any design i wanted from Stock removal, but the F1 utilises the strength of laminate blade with high hardness at the point. Something i couldnt do with stock removal (which is partly why i want to modify F1) because if i made the steel with a high hardness it would be less tough as it would be brittle. The F1 dosnt have this problem

 

[OldJimbo]

The idea that the blade can be thinned - but obviously metal can't be added came up in my email exchange with Peter. The thing is that to satisfy some of us, a lot of metal has to be removed, and the edge has to be consistent when finished.
When the knives came into being, extreme strength and robustness was the selling point. And the knives are certainly well tested and loved by many. So I can well understand why Peter believes most people are satisfied with the knives as outdoor blades. The reason I put off writing an article about the knives and instead discussed on forums is simply related to the method of use. I found that prying can be a pretty hazardous endeavour. For some reason I never hear about the hazards from prying fanatics, and I often wonder if they've done as much of it as I have, or they say they have.

 

[British Red]

GreenMan,

You might want to look at the new BRKT Aurora over on outdoors-magazine. Still doesn't quite work for me (still the wrong grind etc), but a lot closer than the F1 - love the handle, point and general contour - still to thick for me but I'm a delicate flower

Red

 

[Bardster]

GreenMan,

You might want to look at the new BRKT Aurora over on outdoors-magazine. Still doesn't quite work for me (still the wrong grind etc), but a lot closer than the F1 - love the handle, point and general contour - still to thick for me but I'm a delicate flower

Red

I have one of these on the way to me as we speak and shall be examining it with interest - may even write a few words in a review :O Its possibly a little long for my my taste but there has been talk of a 4" version.