Fairly soon I may not even be able to give away seeds of old vegetable varieties
- Thread starter British Red
- Start date
We discussed that in a German Bushcraft Forum, too. I have a large vegetable garden and I want to grow whatever I feel is right, not what any giant seed "manufacturer" wants me to buy. Let's all hope it doesn't come true, it would be a great loss for the diversity of our food (and nature)!
I signed the petition against this the other day.
My take is its Monsanto trying to gain a monopoly on food production. They dont want you to have seeds capable of producing viable seed from it. They want us all to grow their "special" seeds which have suicide genes built into them so they cant produce viable seed. Also known as F1 varieties. So you buy new seed every year from them.
My take is its Monsanto trying to gain a monopoly on food production. They dont want you to have seeds capable of producing viable seed from it. They want us all to grow their "special" seeds which have suicide genes built into them so they cant produce viable seed. Also known as F1 varieties. So you buy new seed every year from them.
This is the first time I have heard about this... So let me get this right...
For instance .... Two years ago I grew some sweet peppers and chillis in the same room (I think they were Fresno chiilis) last year I planted the chilli seeds I saved to grow some more and what I got out was some odd peppers that had obviously cross bread with the sweet peppers.
The resultant peppers were actually quite tasty, although not as hot as the originals they had a much sweeter flavour.. ok so I know this was just a happy accident and I wish I still had some seeds left.. but if I am right in reading the links (thank you for them) I would technically not under the new law be able to give these seeds away to friends who also grow veg?!?!
That sounds utterly ridiculous... amongst my friends we sometimes swap seeds from last years crops, but even in that case I cannot guarantee no cross breeding has occurred... Even if I plant all the same varieties, next door may have something different and I cannot control where the bees go?!!? (Other than the fact that I think as most people who grow plants find its actually quite interesting on the rare occasions when you put seeds from last year in and get something different out).
Or have I misunderstood the change in rules?
For instance .... Two years ago I grew some sweet peppers and chillis in the same room (I think they were Fresno chiilis) last year I planted the chilli seeds I saved to grow some more and what I got out was some odd peppers that had obviously cross bread with the sweet peppers.
The resultant peppers were actually quite tasty, although not as hot as the originals they had a much sweeter flavour.. ok so I know this was just a happy accident and I wish I still had some seeds left.. but if I am right in reading the links (thank you for them) I would technically not under the new law be able to give these seeds away to friends who also grow veg?!?!
That sounds utterly ridiculous... amongst my friends we sometimes swap seeds from last years crops, but even in that case I cannot guarantee no cross breeding has occurred... Even if I plant all the same varieties, next door may have something different and I cannot control where the bees go?!!? (Other than the fact that I think as most people who grow plants find its actually quite interesting on the rare occasions when you put seeds from last year in and get something different out).
Or have I misunderstood the change in rules?
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The blatant stupidity of this is mind-boggling..............I've thought of little else in the 48 hrs. or so since BR's original post; I still find it difficult that "those who run things in Europe" can really be so crass and transparent as to roll over and allow this to happen. As far as I can see there is absolutely no remote pretense at any justification for the proposed measures, outside of the financial gain of the agri-industrial giants.
The more I think on it the more I am convinced that if this goes through it will be looked back on as a watershed moment in the wanton disregard for anything other than profit.
I have a very bad taste in my mouth, and it seems likely to linger................................................mac
The more I think on it the more I am convinced that if this goes through it will be looked back on as a watershed moment in the wanton disregard for anything other than profit.
I have a very bad taste in my mouth, and it seems likely to linger................................................mac
Elen Sentier
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Look HERE - Avaaz. This brings out all my anarchical tendencies (inherited from family!). I cannot understand why anyone takes any notice of "the rules" ... no, no, please don't bother telling me !!! I have a rule-observing Hubby !!!
Elen Sentier
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Elen Sentier
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
whenever I see something like this thread, the cynic in me thinks "what's the other side of the argument!"
So - as all of you have undoubtedly studied the legislation in great detail in order to be so against it, can you explain to me the arguments FOR the putative law, so I get both sides of the argument?
So - as all of you have undoubtedly studied the legislation in great detail in order to be so against it, can you explain to me the arguments FOR the putative law, so I get both sides of the argument?
I believe its effectively a "trades description" argument Andy. A seed can only be described as a variety if the defining characteristics of the type are agreed and standardised. To agree and standardise a type costs money so an initial registration fee and annual renewal fee applies. To sell a variety the person must be qualified in identification and preparation techniques so registration and qualification apply.
All this makes sense for Thompson and Morgan and so on.
They simply seem not to recognise the "not for profit" motive - those trying to preserve old apple types or white carrots that simply cannot afford the fees.
All this makes sense for Thompson and Morgan and so on.
They simply seem not to recognise the "not for profit" motive - those trying to preserve old apple types or white carrots that simply cannot afford the fees.
I 'think' Joel's chilli analogy is the root of all this.
Y'see if someone buys seeds from one of these multi national mahooosive seed producers; and mind those seeds are from incrediby tightly controlled breeding; sows and grows them and somehow or other manages to grow them again, or heaven forfend actually manages to get them to breed with some other variety within the same family, then the companies are claiming that that's 'their' seed.
The fact that they 'sold' the seed doesn't seem to stop their claims
Their other major problem is that Nature hates a monoculture and attacks it with everything she has....so the companies want to wipe out anything that they can that will 'damage' 'their' crop
and that includes unplanned biodiversity or Joel's chillis, or BR's onions or the cuttings from my blackcurrants
It's an argument that's not going to go away. I think all the small growers, like The Real Seed Company (who actually tell you how to save the seed for yourself and are happy to see what hybrids you come up with, because they do it themselves)
need all the help they can get on the issue.
Mary
Y'see if someone buys seeds from one of these multi national mahooosive seed producers; and mind those seeds are from incrediby tightly controlled breeding; sows and grows them and somehow or other manages to grow them again, or heaven forfend actually manages to get them to breed with some other variety within the same family, then the companies are claiming that that's 'their' seed.
The fact that they 'sold' the seed doesn't seem to stop their claims
Their other major problem is that Nature hates a monoculture and attacks it with everything she has....so the companies want to wipe out anything that they can that will 'damage' 'their' crop
and that includes unplanned biodiversity or Joel's chillis, or BR's onions or the cuttings from my blackcurrants It's an argument that's not going to go away. I think all the small growers, like The Real Seed Company (who actually tell you how to save the seed for yourself and are happy to see what hybrids you come up with, because they do it themselves)
need all the help they can get on the issue.
Mary
Elen Sentier
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Mac, I've had that taste in my mouth since the 60s ... yes it's been going on that long but it's exponential in its growth and has now got to an acute state, and it's still getting worse.
Did you all see about the "habitat offset"? Developers can now build on nature reserves if they put some habitat somewhere else ... of course, it only takes six months to build a hedge habitat. Those in government have nothing at all except greed between the ears. I think I'm off to write the novel before I murder someone !!!
OK. Although I'm still wondering what the driving force for the legislation was in the first place? Massive abuse? Selling of dangerous crops that have been mis-classified, or containing contaminations that could devastate national harvests? Protection about GM crops being put into the food-chain on the quiet?
I'm presuming the registration/qualification fees are extortionate (although I wonder if Kew Gardens etc could provide this "training/review" service for worthy groups on a free/subsidised basis?) And you just know the French/Italians/Greeks/Spanish etc will take no notice of the regulations anyway!.
So you can still give seeds away, then, as you're not selling them? And there's no restriction on replanting seeds from your current-year harvest, assuming you haven't planted a suicide variety?
I'm presuming the registration/qualification fees are extortionate (although I wonder if Kew Gardens etc could provide this "training/review" service for worthy groups on a free/subsidised basis?) And you just know the French/Italians/Greeks/Spanish etc will take no notice of the regulations anyway!.
So you can still give seeds away, then, as you're not selling them? And there's no restriction on replanting seeds from your current-year harvest, assuming you haven't planted a suicide variety?
You cannot even give seeds away apparently - although I think you can re-plant your own. The thing is, plants are NOT like medicines - they evolve, hybridise etc.
Its worth bearing in mind that the legislation is opposed by two out of three EU directorates!
Its worth bearing in mind that the legislation is opposed by two out of three EU directorates!
Plenty of problems in india since they ousted the traditional seeds and replaced with GM seeds. Thousands of farmers have killed themselves over debts due to crop faliures when using GM seeds and plenty more have been sued and lost everything due to GM crops being found in their fields after some cross pollination.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...suicide-using-genetically-modified-crops.html
http://www.dailytech.com/Monsanto+D...+Bioethics+Class+Action+Suit/article24118.htm
http://thinkprogress.org/health/2012/11/21/1224761/farmers-insurance-sued-by-corporations/?mobile=nc
Happening in America too. A farmer has his field contaminated by next farms seeds, sued by monsanto. They (the farmers) ALWAYS lose
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...suicide-using-genetically-modified-crops.html
http://www.dailytech.com/Monsanto+D...+Bioethics+Class+Action+Suit/article24118.htm
http://thinkprogress.org/health/2012/11/21/1224761/farmers-insurance-sued-by-corporations/?mobile=nc
Happening in America too. A farmer has his field contaminated by next farms seeds, sued by monsanto. They (the farmers) ALWAYS lose
I 'think' Joel's chilli analogy is the root of all this.
Y'see if someone buys seeds from one of these multi national mahooosive seed producers; and mind those seeds are from incrediby tightly controlled breeding; sows and grows them and somehow or other manages to grow them again, or heaven forfend actually manages to get them to breed with some other variety within the same family, then the companies are claiming that that's 'their' seed.
The fact that they 'sold' the seed doesn't seem to stop their claims
Thanks for replies... I will try to keep this away from political and if I am out of order I do apologies Mods can delete or edit as they see correct!
Having read up on it a bit now.. It seems to me that this is a ridiculous piece of legislation and I do wonder if as some have already said it is based around trade and industries, I guess if you buy in a supermarket or as seeds a gardeners delight tomato for instance then you have the right as a consumer to know it is what it states on the pack rather than a generation from gardeners delight "parent plants" and potential hybrid. As a functional piece of legislation I can understand the want or need to ensure that... If that is what these law are designed to do then what a ridiculous method of attempting to enforce to "protect" the consumer.
Surely this legislation is another example of laws implemented (meant with no political bias in this statement) that just steam roller over the cultural heritage that law makers European and otherwise are elected to protect.
For instance...
My Grandad on his return from the RAF in WW2 got an allotment so he could grow veg and supplement rationing with fresh food. He used to swap his veg with others for veg, rabbits, fish or whatever they had. I remember asking him once how comes he always managed to grow such good reliable veg, his answer was "time"... Time? as in experience in growing? I replied.. Surprisingly his answer was "only partly".
It turned out each year he would keep the seeds of his best veg and any unusual "hybrid seeds" then replant them the next year. Turned out every one in his allotments did this and a community built up of everyone swapping seeds.. someone's cucumbers did well they would swap seeds with someone who had good tomatoes year on year and so on. Obvious to us now but what they were doing was selectively breeding natural varieties that suited the area in which they were growing, my granddad did this for near 50 years with some seeds apparently being distant generations from his first very successful plants.... "time"...
Obviously these plant over the years were no longer the original strains any more but local develop varieties which were at the centre of a local community of swapping, growing, talking, sharing and comparing... exactly how these things should be.
In some form or another people all around the world have been doing this for thousands of years... So I will definitely be signing up and sending an email
Its just like the campaign to save the "British Pint" !
Having read up on it a bit now.. It seems to me that this is a ridiculous piece of legislation and I do wonder if as some have already said it is based around trade and industries, I guess if you buy in a supermarket or as seeds a gardeners delight tomato for instance then you have the right as a consumer to know it is what it states on the pack rather than a generation from gardeners delight "parent plants" and potential hybrid. As a functional piece of legislation I can understand the want or need to ensure that... If that is what these law are designed to do then what a ridiculous method of attempting to enforce to "protect" the consumer.
Surely this legislation is another example of laws implemented (meant with no political bias in this statement) that just steam roller over the cultural heritage that law makers European and otherwise are elected to protect.
For instance...
My Grandad on his return from the RAF in WW2 got an allotment so he could grow veg and supplement rationing with fresh food. He used to swap his veg with others for veg, rabbits, fish or whatever they had. I remember asking him once how comes he always managed to grow such good reliable veg, his answer was "time"... Time? as in experience in growing? I replied.. Surprisingly his answer was "only partly".
It turned out each year he would keep the seeds of his best veg and any unusual "hybrid seeds" then replant them the next year. Turned out every one in his allotments did this and a community built up of everyone swapping seeds.. someone's cucumbers did well they would swap seeds with someone who had good tomatoes year on year and so on. Obvious to us now but what they were doing was selectively breeding natural varieties that suited the area in which they were growing, my granddad did this for near 50 years with some seeds apparently being distant generations from his first very successful plants.... "time"...
Obviously these plant over the years were no longer the original strains any more but local develop varieties which were at the centre of a local community of swapping, growing, talking, sharing and comparing... exactly how these things should be.
In some form or another people all around the world have been doing this for thousands of years... So I will definitely be signing up and sending an email
Its just like the campaign to save the "British Pint" !