"Elvenising" my equipment.

[Phil6201]

You appear to have lumped all ultralighters together as inexperienced outdoorsmen who don't have an understanding of changing weather.

In the context of the OP, who by his post clearly is somewhat inexperienced, advocating an ultralight approach for someone who has yet to develop the risk assessment skills and knowledge in the outdoors is not a necessarily the best approach.

To make the decisions on what kit can be trimmed back takes experience. That needs to be learnt, especially as each individual has different abilities, fitness, tolerance to temperature, food requirements etc. It's not something to be learned to a suitably safe level simply by reading another ultralight enthusiasts posts online.

Being encouraged on an online forum to suddenly give lightweight tramping/hiking a try, by posters who have a lot of experience, runs the risk to the novice of cutting back on kit that an experienced person would not.

The OP can't jump online when he's caught out in his -50 and is freezing his tits off to ask all the experienced people what he should do now.

I'm not suggesting that he shouldn't experiment and work out for himself what works and what does not - on the contrary, that's the way to actually learn. But my posts are aimed at tempering that rush of enthusiasm coupled with lack of experience that might lead to problems.

though he mostly just uses an umbrella.

Are you taking the mickey? An umbrella? I nearly wet myself when I read that.

Clearly our experience of the outdoors is very, very different. An umbrella would be about as useful here as a chocolate frying pan. It is pretty normal to set off on a nice warm day at sea level, be hot to the point of needing to be concious of water intake, yet by lunch time be at around 1200m and leaving the bush line to be exposed to high winds and a wind chill effect that requires you to put on your warm mid-layer, exchange your sun hat for a balaclava and dig out gloves. If you keep climbing to the tops, at around 1500 - 1700m you might even find snow on a summers day. By the afternoon the chance of the weather changing to freezing windblown rain is high, the wet weather gear you have is not carried for emergencies, it's carried so you don't get hypothermia on the tops in the afternoon, not as a 'just in case' but as a definite requirement that you will use. This is pretty standard for a fairly simple day long tramp in the Tararua or Ruahine ranges.

You appear to have lumped all ultralighters together as inexperienced outdoorsmen who don't have an understanding of changing weather.

Not at all, note that I stress the importance of having the experience to make the correct decisions about what equipment is needed, and to have the experience to understand the conditions and the implications of your gear choice in those conditions. That is far from saying that all ultralight enthusiasts lack these skills. For those with that experience fine, the issue I have is with those that don't, or more dangerously, those that think they do, but don't (like the guy in the article). I also make the point that simply reading a post on here does not impart that experience, and caution is important.

 

[wistuart]

Sensible lightening of your kit is all well and good but are you seriously considering burning a long fire all night and every night instead of just carrying a sleeping bag? Do you go into the countryside to enjoy it's beauty and natural treasures or just to see how much damage you can do to it?

 

[Tengu]

I dunno about elves but we tengu are very fond of setting fire to things....

 

[Claudiasboris]

Travel light, freeze at night!

Interesting thread going on here, though it seems to have moved to being about the extremes of environments.

Going back to the amount of food taken, I can attest that you can walk for several days on no food, though of course, drinks are essential. After suffering from altitude sickness in Nepal my apetite disappeared (it's usually very healthy). I couldn't face food mostly, I had the odd apple here and there and once I got severe dehydration I think I ate even less. So, I wasn't very well but I managed to walk a good few miles while eating a very small of food.

Claudiasboris

 

[Riven]

I travel light because I fly with Ryan Air.

 

[spamel]

Sensible lightening of your kit is all well and good but are you seriously considering burning a long fire all night and every night instead of just carrying a sleeping bag? Do you go into the countryside to enjoy it's beauty and natural treasures or just to see how much damage you can do to it?

I don't see how burning wind fallen wood is gonna greatly damage the wild places, so long as you do it correctly and with respect, and tidy the fire place up afterwards you can turn back after a few metres and not see where the fire was.

As for the arguments over what should and shouldn't be carried, it's going into kit snobbery territory again. Take what you want or what you think you need. If you die because of something you left behind, don't blame somebody else. If you have a crap night because you took a small picnic blanket instead of a sleeping bag and kip mat and the wood was too wet to burn, blame nobody else buy yourself. Our kit choices should be personal decisions and if they fail then it is our own fault. People need to start taking responsibility for their actions in all walks of life and stop blaming others for their own mistakes.

Similarly though, if somebody asks for advice on how to lighten his kit, surely that is what should be discussed? Starting online arguments about the weather in a country where the original poster doesn't even live seems to me to be a waste of his time. He is asking for equipment advice, not what the weather will be like in new Zealand on Sunday!

 

[Phil6201]

Our kit choices should be personal decisions and if they fail then it is our own fault. People need to start taking responsibility for their actions in all walks of life and stop blaming others for their own mistakes.

Absolutely right. But it's not just a matter of the individual having a cold night, ends up hungry etc. People need to be aware that their decisions will also have an impact on others, when those mistakes put the police, SAR people and helicopter crews who come looking for you into danger it becomes bigger than just thinking about yourself.

 

[spamel]

Absolutely right. But it's not just a matter of the individual having a cold night, ends up hungry etc. People need to be aware that their decisions will also have an impact on others, when those mistakes put the police, SAR people and helicopter crews who come looking for you into danger it becomes bigger than just thinking about yourself.

Very true, but he's not gonna get stuck up a mountain in London, trust me!

 

[jimford]

Are you taking the mickey? An umbrella? I nearly wet myself when I read that.

I generaly carry an umbrella in the Cairngorms. It's a small folding one that tucks in the space between the small of my back and rucksack.

It really comes into its own when it starts to rain, but you're not sure that it isn't going to be just a shower that'll clear by the time you unship your pack and dig out your waterproofs. You can just deploy the brolly (if it's not too windy) without stopping and walk in comfort while you decide if the rain is going to last.

There's a rather special feeling that needs to be experienced, walking in a heavy shower without wearing waterproofs, with a brolly up!

Jim

 

[wistuart]

I don't see how burning wind fallen wood is gonna greatly damage the wild places, so long as you do it correctly and with respect, and tidy the fire place up afterwards you can turn back after a few metres and not see where the fire was.

By and large that's true, but how many people actually restrict themselves to only burning dead wood on suitable sites and cleaning up properly afterwards? Going by the number of ugly fire remains I see when I'm out and about not nearly enough, to the point where it's become quite a bug-bear of mine. I spend every other weekend out in the countryside involved in one pursuit or another and I can honestly say I can't remember the last time I had to make a fire. If it was necessary then of course I would have no problem with it but I don't see why we should condone completely uneccessary and avoidable fire building.

 

[rik_uk3]

By and large that's true, but how many people actually restrict themselves to only burning dead wood on suitable sites and cleaning up properly afterwards? Going by the number of ugly fire remains I see when I'm out and about not nearly enough, to the point where it's become quite a bug-bear of mine. I spend every other weekend out in the countryside involved in one pursuit or another and I can honestly say I can't remember the last time I had to make a fire. If it was necessary then of course I would have no problem with it but I don't see why we should condone completely uneccessary and avoidable fire building.

I agree with you 100%. This obsession with making fires at every chance is not only consuming a small pool of natural resources, but limits people to the areas they can go and camp in. We talked of fires on another forum recently and I've made the decision to only light a fire in the winter (if in woodland) and use one or two of my stoves at all other camps; I'm sick of seeing fire scars and groups of people lighting three or four fires instead of using one group fire, it makes no sense and pees me off.

 

[Rain man]

Wow. Thank you to all who have replied!
I guess without making the thread 3 pages long listing my knowledge and experience or lack of, equipment I own, where I intend to use it, or how long and in what conditions.... then it has opened the debate up quite a bit to the "will I kill myslef or wont I" discussions. Although even in these, some knowledge has been gleened (many thanks). And a special thanks to Sandbender to going to the trouble of linking those funny French chaps and their masterful elven crafts.
I had considered that the Native americans/elves/whoever were travelling light because they are 5 mins from home and would be back in time for tea. And that they dont need many clothes etc because their weather is fairer than ours perhaps? But I still believe that my gear can (and will) be seriously re evaluated (not to the detriment of my safety! - I always carry my trusty space blanket and FAK etc and have good knowledge of how to use said items).
I have seen Buffallo and I indeed own a special 6 shirt with hood... and it is VERY warm when not in cold conditions - but I do run a little hot. I understand though that they were attempting to replace the 'single layer' fur clothes of our aboriginal ancestors, but I plead with then to make one which I can sit near a fire without fear of embers, and can go near brambles without fear or ruining my £100 top. Top marks for it for warmth when wet tho!
Tents are lovely (I own a Hillberg Akto and will miss using it terribly, but it has to go. Not because its heavy, (a kilo give or take) or bulky (fits easily into a side pocket)... but once you've woken up in the morning and can see the forest around you (regardless of the weather) you will never go back to surrounding yourself in Nylon again. (or maybe you will, tents are cosy). But personall, everytime I go out I come back with different thoughts about my gear and what I shall take next time, I am still trying to learn as much as i can about all equipment and the outdoors. I suppose the aim is to limit the chaff, to strip away all the unnecessary. So there is as little as possible between you and the experience of the outdoors? But I completely understand that there is a limit, a point where if you take any more away from your equipment you will compromise your enjoyment and/or your safety. But hey lets find that point eh?!
I guess that in winter I just cant get away from the physics of how bulky my clothing will be, wool is bulky but warm, live with it. I guess I will end up filling my Sabre 75 with clothes etc but the plus side being, after I have reduced weight elsewhere, it will be full, but light!
I am quite active when I go to the woods and so a heavy pack is more noticable than when I'm just walking on flat ground to a campsite for example. And I have always had a hatred of bright coloured clothing and noisy clothing too especially. Which is where the natural materials are usually better. I am talking about blending in with your surroundings for your own peace of mind and sense of belonging (apparently Deer can't see Bright orange any more than they can see olive green?) and I appreciate that It would be bright orange all the way if i were going into the moutains (safety first!). So maybe I'll retract my tag of "elvenising" my equpiment but I just thought I'd clarify my original thoughts on how I came about this thread. I am after a set of clothes and equipment that will enable me to go into the woods (predominatley UK) and move freely, as much as possible, feel closer to it, letting it provide some things for me (save having me carry them), in the most practical and preferably natural way possible. With exceptions of course (personal titanium obsession satiated). ... ooh I've stumbled on a paradox, I always seem to buy more in order to carry less... I think...its late, I've rambled on too long.

 

[wentworth]

Are you taking the mickey? An umbrella? I nearly wet myself when I read that.

Clearly our experience of the outdoors is very, very different. An umbrella would be about as useful here as a chocolate frying pan.

You know nothing of my outdoor experience. Nor of the original poster.

And please remember than NZ may be the sharpest, nastiest, manliest place in the world, but none of us here are in NZ. I'm in Australia and the majority are in the UK.

Rainman, please let us know what you come up with kitwise.

 

[Bravo4]

First off I was in the U.S. Army so it was not as awsome or intelligent as it could have been.

I'm guessing the guys at Valley Forge felt the same way, must be an Army tradition,,,going strong,,, "and the Army goes rolling along"

I'm still trying to figure out if there is a difference between an elve and an elf.

Wow Rain Man, look what you started. Do these things always take off like this? I think I may have added to it somehow, it's hard for me to know much about the person I may be responding to and for them to know where I am coming from without as you say, declaring a resume and long worded explanations of details that are more obvious when talking face to face. I've got to check myself a little because I have not really been thinking enough about who might be reading this and what their experience level is like.

I mentioned doing the blanket thing a bit this summer and that has to do with MY thing, the Bravo4Way which I am well prepared to handle. I really don't care for the cult of personality which seems to go along with so many outdoorsy things. Do it the Your Name Here-Way and you'll do fine. Take on someone else's trip and you're setting yourself up for a doosey.

From what I can tell you know what you are about and probably know already or will quickly find out why a good bag tops a long fire, the long fire being the emergency back-up to no bag. And when you need a fire for emergency use, funny how it's not really the best time to start figuring out how to light one. Isn't it all, nothing but paradox? I just assume there is always a paradox, sometimes I just don't notice.

The guys from NZ make some very valid points. Mountain environments can sneak up and kick your butt, very common for people who have quite alot of outdoor experience to travel into the mountains and get into a world of hurt. A thru-hike on the Appalachian Trail is not quite the same as bushwacking thru the Rockies. Ask Lewis and Clark. Very possibly entirely irrelevent for this forum, but maybe not.

You ask yourself "why did I bring all this stuff?" and next minute you've got everything on and you're squatting down on a foam pad in full-on survival mode saying "why didn't I bring more stuff?". First time I saw lightning BELOW me I said "oh, this can't be good, nice to look at, but we gotta go down into that".

I base what I carry on where I'm going to be, and as important if am going solo or not. It's a whole different ball game when you travel by yourself.

completely off topic, I'm showing the film "Walkabout" to some friends tonight, I'm guessing somebody around here has seen it Come on now let's have some fun before we get on, not enough time for:swordfigh

 

[Chinkapin]

I just want to clear up one point. Dogwood seemed to think that I was saying that he was romanticizing Native Americans and Longhunters. Actually, what I was trying to say, was that the paintings and illustrations of Longhunters, and Native Americans often tended to show them with only the most minimal gear. I never saw a painting of a Native American lugging a cast iron cook pot, although they certainly had them after white contact.

The illustration of Natty Bumpo running straight toward the viewer in the Leatherstocking Tails movie version is a good example.

Other than that I think Dogwood and I actually see this pretty much the same way.

One last thing about food. It is a well recorded fact that there have been people that got lost in the wilderness and wandered about until they starved to death. However, they are not a drop in the bucket to the amount of people who go out into the wilderness poorly clothed, and end up dead of hypothermia.

As Monty Python used to say: "And now for something completely different"! In 1873, a man named Albert Packer and five other men went into the Colorado Rockies and were trapped in a snow storm. Eventually, the next Spring, Albert emerged without his pals. An investigation concluded that Mr. Packer had cannibalized the other five men.

Packer became the first man tried for cannibalism in the U.S. Reportedly, the judge at his sentencing hearing said: "There were only seven Democrats in the county, and you--you son of a b****, ate five of them!

 

[OzaawaaMigiziNini]

Now, I'm not coming in here with the end-all be-all words of God or any of that. But I'd like to share my opinion, seeing as I'm neither a Brit, nor a Kiwi, nor an Aussie (hi Wentworth).

I have a few quick comments, that aren't aimed at any specific person in this thread.

Weight is a valuable concept. Seeing as a lot of the old guys I have camped with are used to old canvas wedge tents, with wool blankets pinned together in a big wet mass after three weeks on a portage, it's quite interesting to me to hear the difference of opinions on gear.

New Zealand, never been to, but always wanted to. I've heard it's got severe, unpredictable weather. So yes, durable, large amounts of gear are precious cargo.

England, Got relatives in Southampton and Suffolk. Never been, but I've always heard it's lovely. Especially seeing as the UK does have cold winters, wet rain and warm summers, it's no wonder why it's a beautiful place to Bushcraft. I'll eventually get there, once I finish exploring enough of my own country to feel comfortable going to another.


The two countries are mighty different, and like the UK and the USA, opinions are going to be different. However, I think a mutual understanding can be found here;

Well reknowned Arizona Survival instructor Cody Lundin was famously quoted with saying that a survival kit/backpack/rucksack is like the scuba tank on a diver, or a space suit on an astronaut. What happens once that astronaut loses his or her space suit when orbiting the earth?

Yes, gear is nice to have, and for many inexperienced people, they will rely on their equipment to pull them through. However, I live in a country where over a thousand people each year are reported missing in the wilds. The RCMP and SARSCENE believe twice that number actually are missing each year, but only a thousand ever are reported lost. I work with Search and Rescue. I've studied the stats, not just from Canada, but from the USA, and parts of Africa (I am still trying to gather data on New Zealand and Australia). And out of it all, I have heard as many stories of people dying with full backpacks, with every bit of gear you can think of, as much as there have been ultralighters who survived extreme situations with just the clothes on their backs. It's all mental, any situation, it's mental, and only partially physical.

Of that number, 65% are hunters, another 20-odd% are anglers/trappers, the rest is made up of bush pilots, weekend warriors, birdwatchers, and hikers (whether ultralight or traditional backpackers is not known, but I am sure the data is being collected).

Considering how low a percent out there are hikers or backpackers, I don't think the main issue is equipment as much as it is experience with orienteering, first aid, and perhaps basic survival. Hunters expect to follow a trail that they perhaps saw last year or a few hours ago on a map. They follow a trail, get turned around and lost. A missing person, if healthy, can go between 4-6 kms in one hour. So for every hour a missing person is in the wild, the search are doubles in size. This is what I have been told by officials and experts about how it's like in other countries other than Canada.

Now, if the hunter only expects to be out for a few hours, maybe a day, how much gear do you really think they will be carrying?

Simply put, the concept of "all of this gear to keep you from dying" is a dangerous concept. It has to be put to bed as quickly as the idea that anyone can go naked into the wilds and survive by becoming one with nature.

In the old Kochanski clear simple thought "The more you know, the less you need".

 

[dogwood]

Simply put, the concept of "all of this gear to keep you from dying" is a dangerous concept. It has to be put to bed as quickly as the idea that anyone can go naked into the wilds and survive by becoming one with nature.

In the old Kochanski clear simple thought "The more you know, the less you need".

I agree with a huge amount of what you've said. I've never done SAR but I've got a ton of friends who have and their views pretty much reflect yours

 

[dogwood]

I just want to clear up one point. Dogwood seemed to think that I was saying that he was romanticizing Native Americans and Longhunters. !

Hey, brother, I didn't take offense and I'm always interested in your opinion on things. Besides you were exactly right on the main point you made. No worries. And I agree that we pretty much see this (and lots of other things) the same way.

 

[ZDP-189]

I can dig it. You go out into the woods bringing with you only a sword, bow, quiver, cape, lammas bread and a 23 year old Liv Tyler.

 

[ZDP-189]

A missing person, if healthy, can go between 4-6 kms in one hour. So for every hour a missing person is in the wild, the search are doubles in size.

Not me. I'm a lazy survivalist. You'll find me in the same spot sat by a campfire with a pot of tea on. Or headed a short ways downhill towards water looking to fill my pot.