Elitism?

[coln18]

I read a comment earlier about bushcraft being comfortable in nature with min kit, says who? Bushcraft should be about an individual journey. At one stage on that journey you might have bought some really top notch expensive kit but that doesnt mean you cant still go to the woods with min kit and enjoy it. Like all hobbies you will get more fun out of something when you have more choice, and like someone said earlier everyone is on different levels of income and at different levels of experience,

I wonder if given the choice 20,000 years ago, would a caveman rather rub 2 sticks together or use a lovely wenger jet lighter? (i think the lighter, but only cause it would mean he could hit his cave SWMBO over the head with the sticks cause his tea wasnt ready!!!)

But in all seriousness, i think it is great when anyone gets into a passion like bushcraft that gets them out into mother nature, and it really doesnt matter what kit they use, its got to be better than watching Jeremy Kyle every morning (i hope there aint too many Kyle fans on here, or someone might start a thread about Kyle snobism)

Col...

 

[Nagual]

Nothing else for is there? All moots and meets will have to enforce a no clothes policy.. Of course that may create a few small problems as well as solve this one.. )

 

[gregorach]

Bushcraft is different for everyone and i've always thought that it covered such a massive scope of subject and skills that in general terms it caters for everyone, if people let it. It's not all about have no kit survivalism just like it's not all about having the right brand kit, it's about getting out and doing something, be that watching wildlife or being self sufficient in a hostile place, everyone is at different levels and has different interests, skills and knowledge, I think the elitism does exist with those that think they're better than others be that what they do, where they go, what they use or what they wear. We should be be accepting of others, there's no room for the snobbery and elitism.

Nail. Head. :You_Rock_

Scandanavian winters are cold and dry.

Our winters are cold and wet; it's the wet that makes cotton so dangerous in our climate.

In the tropics, they have a saying: "It's not the heat, it's the humidity." Over here, it's not the cold, it's the damp.

I seem to recall that the majority of hypothermia deaths occur between -6 and +6 Celsius...

 

[Bushwhacker]

Some aspects remind me from my time playing local football, some people liked to spend £120 on a pair of boots and some wouldn't spend more than £20.
Ultimately they can still kick a ball and, like my dad always said, "It ain't the boots, it's the player stood in them".

So it doesn't matter if someones got a £10 Mora or a £300 custom made knife, they can achieve the same aim. It's just down to the individual and how he/she uses it.

 

[John Fenna]

On a side note -
It may interest some to know that the original Jeans were made from Hemp not cotton...canvas derives its name from canabis..early Jeans were more suited to the outdoors...
Denim is a French invention - from Nimes - and was intended for work wear (where you went home from the fields or workshop at night and got changed andwarm and dry)...
The craze for cooton denim Jeans came to Europe from America, along with the Beatnicks (proto-hippies) and counter culture.
In my early days I used to wear cotton denim Jeans for all my adventures but ditched them and switched to Tweed britches for mountain wear (shows my age!) eventualy progressing to modern synthetics.
I am now headed back to natural fibres as I find they suit what I want better, though some modern kit is still in my wardrobe as it does do the job in some respects.
BUT cotton denim does not feature at all - I find it cold, restrictive, useless when damp, evil when wet, slow drying and in the main cut with features that are far from practical for what I do. They are pretty hard wearing though....
It aint Eliteism or Snobbery that rules my choice of kit, merely personal preference

 

[drewdunnrespect]

well said Mr Fenna

 

[5.10leader]

Couldn't agree more,.both in terms of comfort and price. I too had a pait of tweeds for use in the mountains. Not stylish but practical and hard wearing. The same properties can be found with modern synthetics. Where instructing in the mountains, jeans were always a big no-no on safety grounds. IMO what was right 20 years ago is still correct.

 

[sapper1]

I saw a man who had a very expensive single skin tent and put a tarp over it to stop it being spoiled by the rain.
Now that's elitism.

 

[Tiley]

I may be wrong but I always thought that it's not what you've got but what you do with it. You can, after all, make just as good a spoon with a ten pound Mora as you can with a several hundred pound Wood/Garland/Orford masterpiece. The owner of the former need not be envious of the person with the latter; equally, it's wrong for the owner of the latter to feel pity or in any way superior to the owner of the former. As I said, it's what you can do with the tool, not who made it, that counts.

The branding or manufacturer or maker is totally unimportant or, at best, incidental. This is especially so with clothing. Garments are chosen on function and budget (or that's how it works best for me). The label is totally unimportant. Yet it is interesting to note how many folk want to know what type of jacket RM was wearing or which boots that bloke in the Yukon used. Is it because they worked well? Possibly. Is it because they appeared on t.v.? The cynic in me says that's probably more likely. But, I must remember that people are free in this consumer world to purchase whatever they like and/or want and/or can afford.

"Elitism" is defined as the favouring or creation of an elite; an elite is described as the pick or best of anything. This being the case, the selection of gear for bushcraft by the individual makes that individual elite because they have chosen what they consider to be the best for their budget or taste.

So, is elitism at large? Based on that last premise, I would say, "Yes." Or maybe I've missed the point...

Humble thoughts for your amusement or digestion.

 

[jameswhite]

thats what i miss about our course mr tiley listening to your voice of reason shine like a beacon in the proverbial woodland, incedently if you get a chance can you email me the details of your hammock you use as i think i might get the same! cheers hope you are well.

 

[scanker]

Hmm. Tiley's post got me thinking. "It" is whatever you want "it" to be. As Tony pointed out, everybody is doing different things, at different levels, and "it" is different for each individual.

The more I read this thread, the more I think elitism is something that only exists in people's own minds. People are only elitist if you actually worry about what other people think of you and how you're doing "it", whatever "it" may be.

 

[Wallenstein]

A lot of people enjoy "bushcrafting" alongside a bunch of other outdoor activities, and sometimes it's not practical (or affordable) to have a separate wardrobe / kit locker for each.

If your main activity is canoeing a pair of muck boots are great, and they will work for the odd trip out to the woods too. But if your main activity is trekking in the Alps a pair of leather walking boots might be better than wellies, but they will cope with the odd canoe trip too.

My main interest is walking along hill and fells - which means (for me) light-weight synthetic t-shirts and fabric goretex/event boots; they are not necessarily ideal for spending a lot of time in the woods or for regular canoeing, but for the occasional weekend around the campfire or paddle down the river they are fine.

Or take cooking - a dutch oven is great for the woods, but an army mess tin also works, just not as effectively in some situations. But there are very few occasions where a dutch oven works for hill-walkers (unless you have a sherpa/yak to assist!)

So we compromise, and make do, and often avoid the "best" piece of kit for a particular role in favour of a "jack of all trades" which can be used across a range of activities.

 

[rik_uk3]

Britches will make a comeback, hope they do, they were good stuff.

I do wonder how those cowboys survived wearing jeans though

 

[Overlander30]

S'funny, I thought 'Bushcraft' was all about making yourself the most comfortable in a given situation with minimal or no gear.

Having lottsa gucci high-end kit sounds like the total antithesis of that.



That does'nt mean that you can't have lots of shiny kit , just that i think that you need to prove to yourself that you can get by with just the basic's.

IMO.


What I'm trying to say ( and failing ) is that i would be more impressed with someone who walks into a forest with a pair of army overall's, Old soup can for a pot and a standard Mora clipper and gets on with it for a week or two over the person who has bergen full of hi-end cutting edge gear.


Another edit;- That doesn't mean i can do that , just i would aspire to be able to do that easily.

That illustrates my point re inverse snobbery perfectly. You are making a judgment call about a person because of the kit they have (or don't have). Why does it matter if they have an old pastic cup and a penknife, or latest goretex gear, lundhags, harkila and a lavvu? It doesn't. The outdoors means different things to different people, and similarly, the way they go about being in the outdoors is dicated by their wants/desires/experiences etc. Who are you to judge them because they have a new Harkila jacket? To be perfectly honest, this says more about you as a person than them. They are just using their money in a way they see fit, yet you are looking down on them for it. Sad really.

I've come across this attitude plenty of times. I like to have good quality kit. How I buy it, where I buy it from and what I pay for it is no ones business but my own. If I choose to get a second hand Norrona Recon from ebay for a hundred quid for example, someone will still say (and they have) "you must be made of money", which is not only incredibly rude and offensive, but terribly narrow minded and really quite pathetic. They are making the assumption that I have swanned around various shops flashing plastic all over the place, and even if I have, so what? It's my business, no one elses.

I don't really care who gets kit from where and what kit they have, unless they are on a long trip with me and their kit is innapropriate for the conditions and could lead to a problem which could have been easily avoided with correct kit. Whether it costs a tenner, or a grand, I don't care. I admire a persons ability (to do whatever) than I do the kit they choose to do it with, or what they paid for it.

 

[nickg]

At a wilderness gathering some years ago a chap saw me preparing my fire, asked what technique I was going to use, told him I'd squirt some greenheat gel on the wood and light it with a zippo. he then spent some considerable time telling me how he only ever lit his fire using a friction method as that was what HE considered bushcraft.
Thats what I see as Elitism and I consider it deplorable. I didnt see any reason to argue the toss with him and basically ignored him whilst I spatchcocked a poussin and set it over the fire, but I thought he was a basic bullshi**er. Confirmed when I saw him getting his tin of all day brekkie out of his coolbox later that day. Now I have nothing against him eating out of a tin - I do it often, and I know that making the point that I was spatchcocking a chicken to eat sounds a little cocky and elitist anyway - BUT I feel the difference is in the presentation, I wasnt making a big deal of what I was doing to anyone else - I was simply trying out the technique for the experience, but he was clearly in a sort of boastful and demeaning attitude which, with another person, may have been offputting and demoralising.
We all have different skill sets and different attitudes and exchanging opinions and experiences is probably the most rewarding part of the hobby but the exchange must be invited IMHO and not thrust upon someone.
As an aside on the fabric debate there is nothing wrong with cotton - it doesnt kill - only stupidity or inexperience does that. Cotton tee shirts are a perfectly acceptable underwear in a temperate climate - wearing wool on a hot day will kill far more readily. I dislike goretex and absolutely love my BCUK ventile jacket - even in Norway last feb in -23C it was perfect - with the right under layers.
And one final thing, after 45 years of camping in the services and out, I have come to the conclusion that I really hate sleeping in a doss bag - I really dont like the things, and if I car camp nowdays I take an old duvet or some wool blankets - much more comfortable.

Rant over
Cheers
Nick

 

[John Fenna]

- wearing wool on a hot day will kill far more readily. Nick

Actually - I have seen technical reports thar state that wool, of the lighter weights, wicks better and regulates the body temperature better than cooton. For this reason light weight wool is better than cotton in a hot climate....
In the "Malayan Emergency" some British forces ditched their cotton shirts in favour of the wool shirt as they were better suited to the heat and humidity....

As to fire lighting - I always try to light my fire or Hobo with Flint and Steel or friction, at the very least with a Firesteel - just for the practice and fun of it!
As Tripitika will vouch for - on occasionI am not averse to helping an ailing fire with a drop of meths...but it was origionally lit using a less "modern" method!

 

[Prawnster]

That illustrates my point re inverse snobbery perfectly. You are making a judgment call about a person because of the kit they have (or don't have). Why does it matter if they have an old pastic cup and a penknife, or latest goretex gear, lundhags, harkila and a lavvu? It doesn't. The outdoors means different things to different people, and similarly, the way they go about being in the outdoors is dicated by their wants/desires/experiences etc. Who are you to judge them because they have a new Harkila jacket? To be perfectly honest, this says more about you as a person than them. They are just using their money in a way they see fit, yet you are looking down on them for it. Sad really.

I've come across this attitude plenty of times. I like to have good quality kit. How I buy it, where I buy it from and what I pay for it is no ones business but my own. If I choose to get a second hand Norrona Recon from ebay for a hundred quid for example, someone will still say (and they have) "you must be made of money", which is not only incredibly rude and offensive, but terribly narrow minded and really quite pathetic. They are making the assumption that I have swanned around various shops flashing plastic all over the place, and even if I have, so what? It's my business, no one elses.

I don't really care who gets kit from where and what kit they have, unless they are on a long trip with me and their kit is innapropriate for the conditions and could lead to a problem which could have been easily avoided with correct kit. Whether it costs a tenner, or a grand, I don't care. I admire a persons ability (to do whatever) than I do the kit they choose to do it with, or what they paid for it.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[TeeDee]

That illustrates my point re inverse snobbery perfectly. You are making a judgment call about a person because of the kit they have (or don't have). Why does it matter if they have an old pastic cup and a penknife, or latest goretex gear, lundhags, harkila and a lavvu? It doesn't. The outdoors means different things to different people, and similarly, the way they go about being in the outdoors is dicated by their wants/desires/experiences etc. Who are you to judge them because they have a new Harkila jacket? To be perfectly honest, this says more about you as a person than them. They are just using their money in a way they see fit, yet you are looking down on them for it. Sad really.

I've come across this attitude plenty of times. I like to have good quality kit. How I buy it, where I buy it from and what I pay for it is no ones business but my own. If I choose to get a second hand Norrona Recon from ebay for a hundred quid for example, someone will still say (and they have) "you must be made of money", which is not only incredibly rude and offensive, but terribly narrow minded and really quite pathetic. They are making the assumption that I have swanned around various shops flashing plastic all over the place, and even if I have, so what? It's my business, no one elses.

I don't really care who gets kit from where and what kit they have, unless they are on a long trip with me and their kit is innapropriate for the conditions and could lead to a problem which could have been easily avoided with correct kit. Whether it costs a tenner, or a grand, I don't care. I admire a persons ability (to do whatever) than I do the kit they choose to do it with, or what they paid for it.

Can't remember saying i was judging them at all?

What i did say was ;-

"What I'm trying to say ( and failing ) is that i would be more impressed with someone who walks into a forest with a pair of army overall's, Old soup can for a pot and a standard Mora clipper and gets on with it for a week or two over the person who has bergen full of hi-end cutting edge gear."

I would be more impressed. Period. IMPRESSED. Not judgemental.
I take a reasonable bit of kit into the forest and i think its too much. I would like to be able to take less by knowing more.
On course's i've been on I've seen instructors and students use different bits of kit in a multitude of ways to minmize the amount of kit they do have and carry or improvise it on the spot.
I think Toddy has said it before that 'Bushcraft' is a broad church. The complete continuum from absolute minimal kit survival skills to outdoorsy artistic hobbies all the way to regular camping would seem to be under that roof as well.


I guess we all pray in our own way.

 

[Overlander30]

TeeDee, whilst you didn't use the word "judgement" you said "I would be more impressed..." which indicates that you are making a judgement. Your mention of "army overalls" for example; you would be therefore be less impressed if that person was wearing Norronas etc. Ergo, you're making a judgement, and that judgement is that you would be "less impressed" on the basis of what they were wearing which equates to inverse snobbery.

 

[TeeDee]

Overlander30, If you think that, then thats fine. To me, Life is too short to get hung up over what you or i may ( or may not ) think on an Internet forum. To you, 'Impressed' seems to directly translate as 'judgement'.

Thats fine , thats fine if thats your opinion. To me , however it does not.