Elitism?

[Toddy]

Well if that's a kind of riposte to my reply, let me elucidate.

Cotton is a miserable fabric to wear when it's wet in our cool, damp, temperate climate.

That's it. Not elitism, just sheer practicality. On the moor or hills in Winter, it can kill. That is fact.
I don't think I've ever seen a kit list for skiing, climbing, canoeing, sailing, hillwalking, that included denims as suitable wear.

And before anyone starts a rant, I've been wearing jeans all day, frequently do when out walking close to home, but I know I can get home, dry and warm in very short order.

The cotton 'denims' from the army surplus stores are a different weave, finer and dries a heck of a lot more quickly, and folks usually tuck the legs into their boots to keep them drier, not many do that with jeans. Ventile is so tightly woven that it inhibits the ingress of water, but soak it and it takes forever to dry too. Waxed cotton (and I love my jackets ) is great for a slow pace, otherwise you might as well be wearing a polybag.

Just my tuppence worth. Told you I was a fabric snob

cheers,
Toddy

 

[bushwacker bob]

Its an unavoidable by product of a consumer society. You have (a) you want (b).

 

[Overlander30]

I think it's more snobbery and inverse snobbery as opposed to "elitism". As someone pointed out earlier, there seem to be a number of people on various forums who are quick to use the phrase "more money than sense" and scoff at more expensive gear, yet if someone bags a bargain or makes something, it's to be applauded.

Someone on outdoorsmagic recently asked for a recommendation for a strong goretext jacket and I said Norrona Recon. Despite the OP not stating a budget, and simply saying they wanted the best gear, someone made a scoffing reply with the "more money than sense" comment. Pathetic really.

 

[Draven]

Well if that's a kind of riposte to my reply, let me elucidate.

I apologise, it wasn't and I didn't mean it to sound like it was either. I have no idea what a riposte is, but I assume it's something bad from the tone

Cotton is a miserable fabric to wear when it's wet in our cool, damp, temperate climate.

That's it. Not elitism, just sheer practicality. On the moor or hills in Winter, it can kill. That is fact.
I don't think I've ever seen a kit list for skiing, climbing, canoeing, sailing, hillwalking, that included denims as suitable wear.

Well I don't go skiing, canoeing or sailing Maybe I'm irresponsible, or "hardy" or just stupid, but everything I've done in the outdoors (except a school trip to Ben Mhor, where we were made wear waterproofs) was done in cotton, including camping, climbing (which includes climbing up waterfalls), fishing, much hillwalking, traipsing through rivers, snow and over hills. Sometimes I've had a warm home to return to, other times I've had a pile of leaves, but either way, I've done just fine My only complaint about denim is that it's like sandpaper on the inner thighs when it gets wet - which is one reason why I wear long johns in the wet and cold, as well. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not going to be advising people to wear jeans in the cold and wet, nor would I wear jeans on a week long trek in the arctic circle or a rainforest - I just disagree with the common assertion that it's a death sentence for the moronic and ill equipped.

The cotton 'denims' from the army surplus stores are a different weave, finer and dries a heck of a lot more quickly, and folks usually tuck the legs into their boots to keep them drier, not many do that with jeans. Ventile is so tightly woven that it inhibits the ingress of water, but soak it and it takes forever to dry too. Waxed cotton (and I love my jackets ) is great for a slow pace, otherwise you might as well be wearing a polybag.

Just my tuppence worth. Told you I was a fabric snob

cheers,
Toddy

I tuck jeans into my boots Well, I actually prefer to use those elastic twisters as I find them a bit uncomfortable tucked into my boots. I've never used wax cotton, as I pretty much thought it would be as you said - like wearing a plastic bag.
I suppose that, ultimately, I'd rather hang my clothes up to dry over a fire and sleep without them in a wool blanket or sleeping bag (to be fair, I'm more likely to do that anyway, as the prospect of sleeping in clothes I've worn trekking for however many miles that day isn't appealing) than buy something else, which I'm not going to use all that often anyway. Resistant to change, much?

Pete

 

[Toddy]

I think it's more snobbery and inverse snobbery as opposed to "elitism". As someone pointed out earlier, there seem to be a number of people on various forums who are quick to use the phrase "more money than sense" and scoff at more expensive gear, yet if someone bags a bargain or makes something, it's to be applauded.

Someone on outdoorsmagic recently asked for a recommendation for a strong goretext jacket and I said Norrona Recon. Despite the OP not stating a budget, and simply saying they wanted the best gear, someone made a scoffing reply with the "more money than sense" comment. Pathetic really.

but that is a good jacket and it does get a good rep

Sod's law, can't please everybody.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[rik_uk3]

Nothing wrong with wearing jeans out and about as you should be carrying waterproof trousers anyway if there is a chance you will encounter bad weather.

I keep a pair of Army waterproofs rolled up in the top pouch of my Bergen, they stay there all the time (unless needed of course). As I can now only car camp I'll be dumping the Bergen in favour of a large duffel bag type thing, but the waterproofs will still be carried.

 

[wentworth]

Maybe nothing wrong with jeans if just sitting round in camp, but if doing any serious walking, they will absorb sweat and stay damp. If wearing overpants, I'd think that would just make evaporation even less likely, as ventilation would be limited.
Or so says me back on topic I go...

 

[rik_uk3]

Maybe nothing wrong with jeans if just sitting round in camp, but if doing any serious walking, they will absorb sweat and stay damp. If wearing overpants, I'd think that would just make evaporation even less likely, as ventilation would be limited.
Or so says me back on topic I go...

Wish I'd known that years ago, I hiked all over Snowdonia in jeans, always had waterproofs as backup though

 

[forestwalker]

I don't think I've ever seen a kit list for skiing, climbing, canoeing, sailing, hillwalking, that included denims as suitable wear.

I have. Bill Riviere in "Pole, Paddle & Portage" suggested them as pants. Written in 1969, times sure where diffeent back then, and these days your comment is 100% correct.

 

[malente]

Me too. In some survival book from back in the 70's. I'll look up the reference

 

[scanker]

I'm truly surprised that people are that bothered about what others think of their own personal choices. I couldn't give a stuff.

For the record, I've got bought kit, home-made kit, expensive kit, cheap kit, kit that works well and kit that doesn't. There's no correlation between them.

I'm always interested to hear people's opinions on kit, but I never make a judgement about the individual from that. Perhaps that's just me.

 

[TeeDee]

S'funny, I thought 'Bushcraft' was all about making yourself the most comfortable in a given situation with minimal or no gear.

Having lottsa gucci high-end kit sounds like the total antithesis of that.



That does'nt mean that you can't have lots of shiny kit , just that i think that you need to prove to yourself that you can get by with just the basic's.

IMO.


What I'm trying to say ( and failing ) is that i would be more impressed with someone who walks into a forest with a pair of army overall's, Old soup can for a pot and a standard Mora clipper and gets on with it for a week or two over the person who has bergen full of hi-end cutting edge gear.


Another edit;- That doesn't mean i can do that , just i would aspire to be able to do that easily.

 

[Bushwhacker]

I just think that some people worry about the "keeping up with the Jones's" syndrome.

 

[Tony]

Yeah, there's a small amount of people that judge on kit just like there's a group of people that are complete bushcraft snobs that seem to hate kit, and then there's the ones that think they get out more than others and that makes them better and then there's the......it goes on and on.

Bushcraft is different for everyone and i've always thought that it covered such a massive scope of subject and skills that in general terms it caters for everyone, if people let it. It's not all about have no kit survivalism just like it's not all about having the right brand kit, it's about getting out and doing something, be that watching wildlife or being self sufficient in a hostile place, everyone is at different levels and has different interests, skills and knowledge, I think the elitism does exist with those that think they're better than others be that what they do, where they go, what they use or what they wear. We should be be accepting of others, there's no room for the snobbery and elitism.

One thing i do notice is that those that do think a lot of themselves and look down on others are generally the ones that think they're being looked at that way, they're quicker to take offence because they think they're being judged etc, that's another sad state to be in.

Cor, i've waffled on there

 

[durulz]

S'funny, I thought 'Bushcraft' was all about making yourself the most comfortable in a given situation with minimal or no gear.

Having lottsa gucci high-end kit sounds like the total antithesis of that.



That does'nt mean that you can't have lots of shiny kit , just that i think that you need to prove to yourself that you can get by with just the basic's.

IMO.


What I'm trying to say ( and failing ) is that i would be more impressed with someone who walks into a forest with a pair of army overall's, Old soup can for a pot and a standard Mora clipper and gets on with it for a week or two over the person who has bergen full of hi-end cutting edge gear.


Another edit;- That doesn't mean i can do that , just i would aspire to be able to do that easily.

Erm, I think that's the kind of inverse snobbery some people ar talking about - the fact that you DON'T use all the latest gadgetry and think you're better for it.

I have mixed experiences about the whole elitism/snobbery/inverse snobbery thing. On the bushcraft forums (BCUK and BCL) it does pop up occasionally. And it's usually the inverse variety - homemade/budget is best. And I can see why - the whole eco/recycle/'natural' agenda is part of bushcraft. And I can see why it appears on the forums - often used by people wasting time at work/home, impersonal internet, just plain enjoyment of talking about one's hobby etc.
Though when it comes to actually taking part in the activity, with other people, I never experience it. And I presume that's because you know the person you are with and don't want to insult them or just plain aren't interested and are looking forward to the hours ahead rather than what someone else is wearing/carrying.
It's not something I waste too much of my time thinking about.

 

[BorderReiver]

Well if that's a kind of riposte to my reply, let me elucidate.

Cotton is a miserable fabric to wear when it's wet in our cool, damp, temperate climate.

That's it. Not elitism, just sheer practicality. On the moor or hills in Winter, it can kill. That is fact.
I don't think I've ever seen a kit list for skiing, climbing, canoeing, sailing, hillwalking, that included denims as suitable wear.

And before anyone starts a rant, I've been wearing jeans all day, frequently do when out walking close to home, but I know I can get home, dry and warm in very short order.

The cotton 'denims' from the army surplus stores are a different weave, finer and dries a heck of a lot more quickly, and folks usually tuck the legs into their boots to keep them drier, not many do that with jeans. Ventile is so tightly woven that it inhibits the ingress of water, but soak it and it takes forever to dry too. Waxed cotton (and I love my jackets ) is great for a slow pace, otherwise you might as well be wearing a polybag.

Just my tuppence worth. Told you I was a fabric snob

cheers,
Toddy

No Toddy, very sensible with a lot of knowledge to back up your statements.

Oh, I hate jeans; denim must be the most uncomfortable material ever invented (apart from sackcloth, with the additional ashes).

 

[big_swede]

Well if that's a kind of riposte to my reply, let me elucidate.

Cotton is a miserable fabric to wear when it's wet in our cool, damp, temperate climate.

That's it. Not elitism, just sheer practicality. On the moor or hills in Winter, it can kill. That is fact.
I don't think I've ever seen a kit list for skiing, climbing, canoeing, sailing, hillwalking, that included denims as suitable wear.

And before anyone starts a rant, I've been wearing jeans all day, frequently do when out walking close to home, but I know I can get home, dry and warm in very short order.

The cotton 'denims' from the army surplus stores are a different weave, finer and dries a heck of a lot more quickly, and folks usually tuck the legs into their boots to keep them drier, not many do that with jeans. Ventile is so tightly woven that it inhibits the ingress of water, but soak it and it takes forever to dry too. Waxed cotton (and I love my jackets ) is great for a slow pace, otherwise you might as well be wearing a polybag.

Just my tuppence worth. Told you I was a fabric snob

cheers,
Toddy

You'll see a lot of old timers using cotton as a shell layer in winter in the mountains in Scandinavia. I do too. In fact the traditional anorak is made in tight wooven cotton. I have used cotton as a shell in a lot of different climates. It's a excellent fabric when it's -10 or lower. I could produce several kit lists, both historic and modern, that includes cotton for at least skiing. A lot of arctic and antarctic expedtions have used cotton. So it's not only about material, but also how it's made. But you know that already.

I even climbed newtontoppen in jeans, so don't bash cotton. I wouldn't wear jeans for a wet autumn or spring forest though.

 

[BorderReiver]

You'll see a lot of old timers using cotton as a shell layer in winter in the mountains in Scandinavia. I do too. In fact the traditional anorak is made in tight wooven cotton. I have used cotton as a shell in a lot of different climates. It's a excellent fabric when it's -10 or lower. I could produce several kit lists, both historic and modern, that includes cotton for at least skiing. A lot of arctic and antarctic expedtions have used cotton. So it's not only about material, but also how it's made. But you know that already.

I even climbed newtontoppen in jeans, so don't bash cotton. I wouldn't wear jeans for a wet autumn or spring forest though.

Scandanavian winters are cold and dry.

Our winters are cold and wet; it's the wet that makes cotton so dangerous in our climate.

I've felt warmer in Finland at -20c than UK at 0c because of the humidity. At -20c there is very little moisture in the air.

 

[rik_uk3]

I have. Bill Riviere in "Pole, Paddle & Portage" suggested them as pants. Written in 1969, times sure where diffeent back then, and these days your comment is 100% correct.

The School climbing club rule on jeans was you could wear them so long as mommy bought you a pair of waterproof trousers, mine did (back around 1966) as did other parents, and none of us died or went down with hypothermia.

One of the members on another forum is involved in Bushcraft courses and commented a few months ago that there is a definite change in kit this last twelve months, top end expensive stuff is not seen as much, people are using more mil surplus/lower end gear; economic impact or change in attitude?

Elitism? not sure thats the right word, kit snobbery? for sure, same as any hobby I guess, at the end of the day its your cash so spend away but you don't need keep telling the newbies who ask 'which vest for the UK winter' to go out and buy top end stuff they may only use once a year; this creates peer pressure.

 

[jack by the hedge]

In any community you will always have small tribes. They seem to band together purely on the basis that humans like to hang out with like minded people who value their option.

Yes there will always be numpties that believe that having the best/ cheapest/ latest/ authentic/ primitive/ least/ diy'd kit is the bomb and want to say it loudly and bask in the glory.

I smile at them and move on. Let them say their piece, sometimes they're right, and don't let anyone put you down.

Some of the discussions on this forum over the years has led me to some great pieces of kit. Some I'm still saving up for now. The most important things have also been the tricks and ways people do things, which are completely free and in an oral tradition.

We are a very wide church. All the points of view are important.

I normally go out with too much kit ranging from the good to the cheap and old ( most loved) but have spent the last 6 months going out with little and sleeping back on the floor. Guess i'll be between two trees again soon and next spring plan to run out with next to nothing for a couple of days.

Enjoy the things you do. Keep an open mind and help others.

What else is there?

jbth