Do farmers look more kindly on tarps as opposed to tents?

[Quixoticgeek]

I dunno.
I really don't like the poor attitude and "i know my rights" barrack room lawyer type stuff on this thread
Just be a decent member of the human race and ask permission before making use of another persons property

I entirely disagree. Knowing your rights is, in my oppinion, a fundemental duty of every citizen. If you don't know them, you can't know when they are being violated.

I agree that in an ideal world we should ask permission before rolling out the bivvi bag. However, I think there is a certain amount of balance here too. I personally have only asked permission to wild camp once, because I happened to meet an agent of the land owner, and it came up in conversation. I am however very careful where I camp, and how I camp, practicing leave no trace etc... However, I appreciate that when doing so I may be committing the CIVIL offense of trespass.

I think it ill judged to equate a single night in a bivvi in a spot of woodland or downland with public access, with "camping in your backgarden". It's all relative and each situation is different.

It also works both ways, talking with a friend who was in the scouts a few years ago now, he talked how it was common to be allowed to sleep in a non-livestock farmers haybarn if you asked nicely, and that it was ettiquete to turn over all matches and lighters to the farmer for safe keeping overnight. The idea of this happening now is pretty much unheard of (please correct me if I'm wrong).

The countryside presents a curious dichitomy, it is a working landscape that is owned and managed by various individuals, businesses & organisations. Yet it is also our countryside that we as citizens of this country should have responsible access to. Balancing those groups is non trivial, and far too comples for a phone keyboard at 5am on a Sunday morning.

So you look up all these anciant rights. To what end? So you have some ammunition to throw at a landowner when the poor bloke comes over to see whats going on in his back yard
Yeah, that would make for a really nice end to your relaxing night out under stars, and probably put that landowner off granting permission to the next person that comes along even if THEY have the common decency to ask before trespssing, sorry i mean "stealth camping"

Those rights and knowing them is important. Those rights are what means that you can pick blackberries from the hedge, that you can walk along this path, that you can speak freely, be safe from persecution, and be free to speak on internet forums about such matters.

Knowing those rights, exercising those rights and explaining those rights are not all the same thing. If you greet someone tapping on the side of your bivvi bag with a barage of "But I have a right to x y z" you're gonna get backs up, and it's not going to end well. Being civil, discussing the issue, and doing so without allowing your rights to be infringed, can be done without causing upset or ruining a nights sleep.

Thanks

Julia

 

[nic a char]

EXCELLENT points Julia.

 

[nic a char]

"Proof" by selective example doesn't work - thieving etc is illegal in urban areas too...

 

[nic a char]

Good points boatman

 

[nic a char]

"Very few would want someone camped out in their mwtaphorical back garden."
There's NO "metaphorical" - the right extends ONLY to UNFENCED LAND...

 

[Quixoticgeek]

"Very few would want someone camped out in their mwtaphorical back garden."
There's NO "metaphorical" - the right extends ONLY to UNFENCED LAND...

Careful how that is seen in the eyes of the law. There is a square plot of land owned by Alice, to the North is a plot owned by Bob, he has put a fence on his boundary. To the east is a plot owned by Christine, she has put a fence on her boundary. To the south Diane has a plot of land with a fence along the boundary. Finally on the west side is Eves land, which has a fence along the boundary. Alices land has no fences on it, yet it is entirely fenced in. It is also entirely unfenced.

We're moving from law into philosphy now (brilliant isn't it, love threads like this), but you I hope you can see the point I'm trying to make. In this land of ours what land is unfenced?

Julia

 

[Quixoticgeek]

"Proof" by selective example doesn't work - thieving etc is illegal in urban areas too...

On the subject of trespass, and relevant to this. If you're bivvi'd in a farmers field, he says "Geroff my land!" and as you're moving on, he assists you by throwing your pack over the wall, he commits the CIVIL offense of trespass against your chattels. It's not all that relevant to this thread but given what you said about theft it reminded me of this Tort.

Gotta love English Law...

Julia

 

[boatman]

Correct Julia and there is an unpleasant strain on this forum, probably by people who don't actually own land, that violence against people or things is acceptable.

As to being asked to leave, the only time ever for me was years ago on Fyfield Nature reserve on the Downs in Wiltshire. Was out with some scouts and the problem actually was that they had set up a regular camp complete with a string of flags so the wardens had to notice and evict us. They either never bothered or didn't see me in my little tent or just sleeping in the open in the same area on other occasions.

 

[didicoy]

Does not the first point agree with my point about it being baised in some sort of transit rights, and the sanctimony at the end contradict your point/my point about ancient rights, right to rest? I havn't the ancient rights handbook to hand at the moment but you REALLY REALLY SEEM TO AGREE WITH THERE BEING SOMESORT OF CODE OF TRANSIT.

I think you will read only what you want to read. Unfortunately No my statement does not agree with or support your views based on rights of transit. Sadly ignorance is no defence in a court of law or on any of my footpaths. Hopefully by being a member of Bushcraft UK. You will eventually challenge your own ideas and be a happier person for it. I also realise "You can't erase a love letter with a nipple. No matter how rubbery."

 

[Goatboy]

Someone made the comment about using the example of someone camping out in anothers backgarden not being relavent. I think it is, it's just down to a sense of scale. Look how many neighbors dislike and litigate against each other about how others actions effect what goes on on their property. Indeed NIMBYism is rampant in the UK on various scales. I'm from a culture (Scotland) where most percieve they are and should be free to roam. But this hazy attitude can make it harder to do certain things. Off road driving for one with there being only one (rather disputed) green lane. In England your rights of way are enshrined. A lot of urban dog owners find it much more difficult to know where they can exercise the mutt when visiting the countryside as they don't know where they can take them. It's percieved as easier in town where there are public parks and designated areas.
I'd said elsewhere that it was felt that the death knell for access was seen as 1066 when the Normans put their stamp on the land but some Saxon historians believe that it was similar before the incident with the pointy stick at hastings.
The assumed right to stravaig across hill and glen in Scotland doesn't give carte blanche to do as you please. You cant damage the property or take vehicles onto it. Now damage can be seen as open to interpretation. Many money making activities that support rural areas can be disrupted by folk romping over the landscape. Some of those with an axe to grind against the landed will say that they shouldn't be doing it. But to be honest without a history of big estates as well as sporting interests most of that land you love visiting so much would be under a plough or tarmacadam. I've worked for many folk who view their ownership of the land as a stewardship. Making sure that it's there for the future enjoyment off others.
So be nice about it, ask, you'll often get a nice surprise and may become part of a chain of folk stretching back helping to make sure it carries on. Nothing makes people and countries build stronger fences than the threat of unwanted invaders.

Sent via smoke-signal from a woodland in Scotland.

 

[boatman]

Simple question, ask who? To amplify, where does one estate begin and another end. But, if you must create a "camp" with all the impedimenta described by people who want their sitting room. kitchen and bedroom to be replicated in the woods then you will be visible and had better have permission.

Incidentally the post on Ashdown Forest was interesting because there they have one of the few bye-laws prohibiting even sleeping bags and thus bivvying.
Byelaw 3. No person shall camp upon the Forest , whether in cars , campers , tents , caravans or sleeping bags . Without written permission from the Conservators, no one will park any vehicle on the Forest between the hours of midnight and 6am

 

[Goatboy]

Ask who? In much of the closely inhabited country side you could start in the local village and work your way down the line. Ask folk you meet on a reccy walk, make it a part of your planning. We're on an internet forum, many got here by asking questions and research afore heading out. Maybe that habit could become an extension of finding out who cares for the land you wish to camp on. Though I'm allowed to roam on most estates in Scotland during hunting/shooting season I still either go online or phone ahead for good manners and the safety of others and myself.

Sent via smoke-signal from a woodland in Scotland.

 

[petrochemicals]

In reference to wild camp, it does specifically state "TENT" so I do not know if that means anything legally.

As to the scottish situation, the explicit legally enshrined right to camp (in a tent) has led to the revision of the law concerning Loch Lomond, and it exeption to this right. The fact that it is legally enshrined seems to make people they are free from scrutiny. And the scotland law also states that I could not camp in your garden as it's too close, or within reach of a road.

Dartmoor law

The right to wild camping is actually enshrined in the National Parks & Access to the Countryside Act, 1949 amendment Dartmoor Commons Act, 1985.

Article 6 states:

6 Camping

(1) No person shall knowingly use any vehicle, including a caravan or any structure other than a tent for the purpose of camping on the access land or land set out for the use or parking of vehicles except on any area which may be set apart and indicated by notice as a place where such camping is permitted.

(2) No person shall knowingly erect a tent on the access land for the purpose of camping:

(a) in any area listed in Schedule 2 to these byelaws;

(b) within 100 metres of any public road or in any enclosure.

(3) No person shall camp in a tent on the same site on the access land for more than two consecutive nights, except on any area which may be set apart and indicated by notice as a place where such camping is permitted.

 

[petrochemicals]

Ask who? In much of the closely inhabited country side you could start in the local village and work your way down the line. Ask folk you meet on a reccy walk, make it a part of your planning. We're on an internet forum, many got here by asking questions and research afore heading out. Maybe that habit could become an extension of finding out who cares for the land you wish to camp on. Though I'm allowed to roam on most estates in Scotland during hunting/shooting season I still either go online or phone ahead for good manners and the safety of others and myself.

Sent via smoke-signal from a woodland in Scotland.

And in regards to the fear people may be shot, how does the law find hunting estates responsibilities. Trespass isn't breaking and entering, so I should think you have to discharge you weapon in a responsible manner where ever you are.
And I am of the opinion that I will ask if found by the rightful land owner and clear off if asked too. Any rational peson will be understanding of that if ;

No opportunity arose to ask the land owner, and there was no other way around it.
No problem arose to gain attention
One did not tarry for more than the hours of darkness
And the landowners will was obeyed.

 

[boatman]

Ok, "who to ask?", Walk along Ridgeway in Wiltshire and it is claimed that the path is owned by the adjoining landowners. The National Trust. at Ashdown House for example, denied that the Ridgeway bordering their land belongs to them. Not guesswork because I actually asked them. How do you ask at a farm across fields from the footpath or green way you are on without trespassing anyway, even assuming it is the right one?

Camp on a beach? Ask Her Majesty, or the Duke in Cornwall?

 

[British Red]

. How do you ask at a farm across fields from the footpath or green way you are on without trespassing anyway, even assuming it is the right one?

You do your research in advance and make an effort. You can consult the land registry, knock on the farm door previously and ask with some common courtesy. Even if the land is not theirs, they will probably know who it does belong to.

If you cannot be bothered to have the politeness to ask the landowner, then don't camp there.

 

[Goatboy]

Ok, "who to ask?", Walk along Ridgeway in Wiltshire and it is claimed that the path is owned by the adjoining landowners. The National Trust. at Ashdown House for example, denied that the Ridgeway bordering their land belongs to them. Not guesswork because I actually asked them. How do you ask at a farm across fields from the footpath or green way you are on without trespassing anyway, even assuming it is the right one?

Camp on a beach? Ask Her Majesty, or the Duke in Cornwall?

Haven't you answered that allready? You're not to camp on the ground either side without permission and your cant camp on the path without causing an obstruction.
As to camping on Crown land you don't have to write to them directly but to the person/office in charge of that land.
On the Loch Lomond front it just proves that many don't have respect for that and those around them. Which is why a lot of landowners need to have that trust.built up by those wishing to gain access. I do harbour a feeling that having somewhere like Loch Lomond as an area where they can concentrate their bad behaviour and keeping other areas clear is a good one. Though I know it smacks of a ghetto which is an emotive subject in itself.
I think the answer for me is for folk to have respect and change things bit by bit in conjunction with others and landowners. People can rail at the walls for years but talking and trust change things a lot quicker.

Sent via smoke-signal from a woodland in Scotland.

 

[Quixoticgeek]

Ok, "who to ask?", Walk along Ridgeway in Wiltshire and it is claimed that the path is owned by the adjoining landowners. The National Trust. at Ashdown House for example, denied that the Ridgeway bordering their land belongs to them. Not guesswork because I actually asked them. How do you ask at a farm across fields from the footpath or green way you are on without trespassing anyway, even assuming it is the right one?

Camp on a beach? Ask Her Majesty, or the Duke in Cornwall?

Two points come up here.

One: You have an implied right of access to approach the door of a property to knock on it. So in theory, (this is where I may get out of my depth a little), you have an implied right of access to walk across this field to that farm house to knock on the door and ask to sleep over there. Note, this implied right can me removed by informing someone in writing. I have had to remove the implied right of access to my property for a small number of people.

Two: Just playing devils advocate, when it comes to who to ask, it is not always as cut and dried as some think it is. Next to my garden there is a bit of council land, containing some trees and shrubs. One of these trees is a large acer that is approaching 10+m, and it is starting to shade my garden. I phoned the city council, they said it was Kent county council. I phoned Kent county council, they said it was Canterbury City council, I phoned Canterbury City Council, they suggested I phone SERCO. I phoned SERCO who denied the existence of trees. But, if I run up the chainsaw and fell it you can bet that one of them will turn up with friends who's cars have blue flashy lights... It's not always clear who owns which bit of land.

J

 

[nic a char]

"I do harbour a feeling that having somewhere like Loch Lomond as an area where they can concentrate their bad behaviour and keeping other areas clear is a good one. " There's some merit itn this poinbt of view!
Glasgow is the biggest, and the poorest, city in Scotland. Ben Lomond has always been known to Glaswegians as "the hill" = a traditional place for a big walk.
But what efforts have been made to give Glasgow youngsters an organised taste for the outdoors? Very few.
Billy Connolly & others have made jokes and laughed about "Glasgow camping" = "more a bottle of wine & a plastic mac" - so some "bad behaviour" has been actively encouraged...

 

[nic a char]

In relation to England & Wales, CAMPAIGN FOR CHANGE!
Meantime, it's the old story - asking may lead to refusal = camp discreetly/quietly/secretly, vary your haunts, & leave no trace - that's what people did in Scotland before the brilliant law-change.
And don't be thinking it's only "neds" who leave a mess - eg noted climbing refuges have been littered and worse for almost 100 years = minority vandalism.