Degree

[gra_farmer]

Not sure what you mean by that Tengu.

Someone who is willing to learn. And contribute to the subject.

I left school with no qualifications.

One of my Tutors left school with no qualifications; she was told she would get nowhere.

She now has a Phd.

I fit into the same bracket, I left school with no qualifications, was a labourer for a few years and got fed up being looked down at.

I have dyslexia, and that is what has held me back all this time, but no one would say why I was having trouble, let alone give me time to help me. I was classed as lazy, trouble maker and a few other things, just because I didn't understand and no one was willing to understand me.

I decided to prove everyone wrong, about what they thought of me. I didn't change me, I just aimed higher, and didn’t look back....since then I have written UK and European policy on air quality, I have trained police to investigate drug sences, I have been a university lecturer, I have written UK wide agricultural schemes, my research has been used to counter high court challenges and changed the way that British open golf courses view the environment.

Currently I am working towards safeguarding your drinking water.

And all this from someone that was told I would never amount to anything.....i think in my case that what I was told would be impossible, is in fact probable if you change the way you view your own abilities.

In summary, education is freedom to be what you want to be and do....but has to be fun too

 

[TeeDee]

So an open question - do people think higher degree education costs SHOULD be free or is the correct system now in place? - a investment of money is required personally for an investment of education within yourself?

 

[gra_farmer]

So an open question - do people think higher degree education costs SHOULD be free or is the correct system now in place? - a investment of money is required personally for an investment of education within yourself?

If you pay for something, you often value it.

I missed the free education, but my oldest sister took advantage, she didn't value it, but after a few failed attempts eventually got a degree.

Education should be accessible, so cost in my mind were fair at the £3,000 per year mark.

My PhD, when I did it was £10,000 a year, fees. As I did sciences, the lab and chemical costs were extra, at roughly £60,000 over 3 years, plus I did all my own sampling and analysis, so God knows how much it would have been to get someone else to do it? That was 6 years ago.

 

[gra_farmer]

What are you thinking of @TeeDee?

 

[Laurentius]

If you pay for something, you often value it.

I missed the free education, but my oldest sister took advantage, she didn't value it, but after a few failed attempts eventually got a degree.

Education should be accessible, so cost in my mind were fair at the £3,000 per year mark.

My PhD, when I did it was £10,000 a year, fees. As I did sciences, the lab and chemical costs were extra, at roughly £60,000 over 3 years, plus I did all my own sampling and analysis, so God knows how much it would have been to get someone else to do it? That was 6 years ago.

That is true to an extent, though whether I valued studying in later life because I paid a great deal for it, or because I had a different attitude with age is another thing. As I said before I think lifelong education is important, it should not be compartmentalised between certain stages of youth. Education does not just benefit the recipients of it though, it benefits society as a whole and for that reason I believe it should be more open and free at any age regardless of whether that is your first or second time. Grays elegy in a churchyard and that, mute inglorious Miltons need to be heard. I was advised not to apply to University the second time round, because I would not be able to afford it. I am glad I did not take that advice and went for it. It was very expensive not just because of the fees, but because of the travel and purchase of books and all that, as anybody knows academic books are not cheap.

 

[TeeDee]

What are you thinking of @TeeDee?

Not necessarily anything - sometimes just pure whimsy of random thought.

I find this place a useful sounding board for a mixed bag of varied opinion - helps me with my own thought processes and development of what I think about things.

Currently I'm unsure in myself on this issue and another unrelated less palatable one.

I agree something given for free is seldom valued.
And I do think 'most' people tend to go to University to, in the longer term better their financial position and standing in the world by securing a job with more rounded qualifications in the field that they are interested in.

As such ( based upon my belief ) I think its fair if one is attending university to receive increased earning potential post university that one pays for that investment within oneself. That is maybe a fairly pure capitalistic way of looking at things ( so apologies ) but it is kind of how I see it.

I do wonder if there is an onus sometimes on university to offer more mainstream courses rather than more outlier 'unique' ones - You could at one point study Surfology at Plymouth I think.

Quick Google offers this :-

16 most unusual university degrees

Here are some of the best degrees you've probably never heard of.

www.savethestudent.org

If on the one hand people should be able to study what they wish and hold a passionate interest in , and if the actual degree you complete is more of an indication that one can learn, hold and produce a level of professional work in a field UNRELATED to the eventual field you are going to find yourself in then I guess these courses are all as equally of merit as any other.

I just wonder if there is a thing as Universities now producing courses that are of less actual benefit to the paying participants.



I don't think Oldtimer would agree this is why the majority work towards a degree but its what I believe is behind the reason most do.

I would genuinely like to hear more from oldtimer if he would like to elaborate further on his position and belief.



( apologies - been awake for 36 hours - rambling - going to sleep now )

 

[TeeDee]

That is true to an extent, though whether I valued studying in later life because I paid a great deal for it, or because I had a different attitude with age is another thing. As I said before I think lifelong education is important, it should not be compartmentalised between certain stages of youth. Education does not just benefit the recipients of it though, it benefits society as a whole and for that reason I believe it should be more open and free at any age regardless of whether that is your first or second time. Grays elegy in a churchyard and that, mute inglorious Miltons need to be heard. I was advised not to apply to University the second time round, because I would not be able to afford it. I am glad I did not take that advice and went for it. It was very expensive not just because of the fees, but because of the travel and purchase of books and all that, as anybody knows academic books are not cheap.

But its not free is it? I mean someone at some point ( it may not be you ) ends up paying for someone to teach , someone to administrate , someone to clean the halls and classrooms etc etc .

I think online MOOCs are great - and alot are 'free' but someone at some point invested time, energy and money into creating it.

 

[santaman2000]

A) I originally completed 2 years of study towards a B.S. In Civil Engineering (Normally Bachelors degrees here are a 4 year course of study but engineering fields frequently require 5 years) I was typical of many at that age in that I used those years more for expanding my social life more than studying and my grades suffered. That said, I did well enough that those 2 years in junior college were accepted for transfer to Mississippi State University to complete the final 2 years there. However over the summer break I decided instead to drop out and enlist in the Air Force. The beer the course of my career in the AF I returned to school in my off duty time and completed a Bachelors Degree in Professional Aeronautics (my transcripts from my original 2 years were accepted for transfer to Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University as were many of my Air Force courses and real world experience.

B) I sorta paid for those first 2 years (or at least Mama did) Tuition at that school at the time wasn’t per credit hour as it is now. Rather it was a flat rate tuition of $20 per academic quarter of study plus lab fees and books. In turn she continued to draw a widow’s pension from the Social Security Administration as log as I was under age 23 and remained in school. After I enlisted the Air Force paid the majority of my off duty tuition (at one point they paid 100% for those over the rank of SSgt and under 10 years of service) I earned that degree while still on active duty so when I retired I still had most of my GI Bill education benefits and used a bit of it to earn my police credentials. The fact that I wasn’t paying for it myself originally had a great deal to do with my less than studious attitude.

C) I certainly used it while in aircraft maintenance although not to it’s fullest (unfortunately by the time I completed it I was too old to apply for an officer’s commission) While the particular studies didn’t apply directly to my next career in Law Enforcement and Corrections it did qualify me for special incentive pay.

D) Would I do it the same if I had it to do over? That’s a more complicated question. While I can certainly see many mistakes I made and like to think I would do better if given another chance, the reality I’m happy with my life as it is. If I had succeeded the first try I would have entered the military as an officer. I know that sounds better but my whole cereer trajectory would have been different and I would likely never have met my daughter and her mother (I met Barbara when we were both stationed in England as enlisted members and she was a singe parent of a 4 year old girl) On reflection, I’ll keep,my daughter and 2 grandsons.

That brings up a bit more current view regarding my oldest grandson. He’s currently in his Sophmore year at the University of West Florida. He began as a Computer Science major but has changed to major in Criminal Justice. It’s being aid for with a few grants and a fairly large scholarship he earned by his academic performance in High School. Taken together they cover all of his tuition, books, fees, and dormitory and dining hall costs. Last year and this he has been participating in the ROTC program on an “unfunded” level (meaning they aren’t funding any of his costs but they are giving him full credit academically. Next year he intends to apply for a fully funded ROTC scholarship and when he completes his bachelors degree in another 2 years he’ll leave UWF and accept an officer’s commission.

 

[Wander]

I just wonder if there is a thing as Universities now producing courses that are of less actual benefit to the paying participants.

Yes, it's called Media Studies.
Well, I suppose it does have one key purpose - it allows middle class kids who did badly at A levels to still go to university...

 

[TLM]

Hmmm... have a MSc in aerospace structural engineering and materials engineering. Uni cost next to nothing and I mostly lived home at the time.

Ended up doing things where my degree had direct relevance (a few satellites) and keeping FAF planes flying. After that came everything else. I found out I had got a very good general science an engineering education that could be utilized in a lot of fields.

I did theoretical calculations then had to figure out how to manufacture it and had to see if it survived testing.

Good engineering balances the theoretical with the practical. I have seen theoretical type people make a real hash of design and of analysis. I have also seen the hands-on folk make some suggestions that would have been disastrous if carried out.

Have to agree to a high degree. Wit the comment that if somebody believes that a mathematical model equals real engineering life he/she is a real menace to success.

 

[Wander]

Can we do a bit of friendly ribbing?
Yeah, of course we can...

At university we had a joke:
Q - How many engineering students does it take to change a lightbulb?
A - Dunno, we haven't done it in lectures yet.

They had a reputation of being unthinking and by the book.
Just a joke though.
Go on, feel free to unload your art student jibes - I don't mind, I've heard them all...

 

[Paul_B]

I'm a firm believer that university requires the student to have the mentality to benefit from it. That's not a basic statement because by that I mean benefit both during the course and afterwards. As someone who cruised through my education with relatively little effort I know I was not mentally able to benefit from my education at the time. I don't want to go further into that suffice to say intelligence masks a lot of difficulties.

In my case I went to university too early. 20 years plus after my masters I think I'm now ready! During that period I've been working in roles that people who know me say are beneath my ability. Partly because I followed the grammar school treadmill straight into university when that wasn't right for me. Education isn't right unless it's the right time as well.

So called soft subjects are accusations thrown around particularly at subjects like media studies and sociology. As someone who knows a few soft subject academics I can tell you they're not. It's ignorance of the subject that drives a lot of that view.

Btw as someone who's relied on fire engineers I can tell you it's a serious subject and one that if people in power had taken more seriously you'd probably not have such occurrences like Grenfell.

Instead of directing to university I believe more money should go to careers advice and helping people go down the best direction for them at all ages.

 

[TLM]

At university we had a joke:
Q - How many engineering students does it take to change a lightbulb?
A - Dunno, we haven't done it in lectures yet.

Huge sigh ... there are people like that and I have met my share. They are easy recognise when a new problem is put in front of them, they are lost.

 

[henchy3rd]

A/B BA in Cultural Studies/ History of Art, Open University ( I paid but was supported by LEA) Teacher's Certificate (Grant paid ), Advanced Diploma in Educational Studies (Local Educational granted me a sabbatical year to do this full-time at Cambridge on full pay), two Certificates of Further Educational Studies, Cambridge University paid for one and University of East Anglia paid for the other) Ofsted Registered Inspector Status. (Government paid.)

C Apart from OU degree, all else related to work as teacher/headteacher/lecturer in Education/school inspector. OU degree was for my own interest, but was used as evidence of ability when being head-hunted for the other professional development courses.

D I was a classic 60's drop-out. I didn't like my Direct Grant/ Minor Public School but loved learning and left without doing A levels. Did series of unsuitable and/or dead-end jobs. Got accepted onto a teacher-training course at 25 on the evidence of interview alone. All else followed thanks to employers/managers identifying my potential and investing in it.
I chose the teaching route as it guaranteed employment, long holidays and opportunities for travel. I suspect also a subconscious desire to help others to avoid my own school experiences.
As to would I go this route again, no. My wife had a similar unconventional background, did night school A levels and Cambridge degree in her 40s before lecturing at Cambridge, researching and becoming an adviser to the government.
We made damned sure that our two sons did not go the hard and time-wasting route we did. and pressured them hard to go to university to equip them to make life choices. One rose to the top ranks of an international charity and is now a respected and sought after consultant, the other has a small-holding in Spain where he lives off his land. Both of them have followed the paths they chose. and both succeeded at them. My wife and I both regret the waste of time and potential in our own careers. We are making financial provision to ensure the maximum of choice for our grandchildren's' higher education..

I realise you are seeking information rather than discussion, but the nature of the questions betrays a, to me, worrying bias towards an instrumental view of education which I have fought against throughout my career. The view of those who wish to tie education to the work-place instead of enabling individuals to realise their full potential are in the ascendancy: this is to be regretted.

So an open question - do people think higher degree education costs SHOULD be free or is the correct system now in place? - a investment of money is required personally for an investment of education within yourself?

One point that hasn’t been bought up here.
40% of the adult population has around £1,000 in savings,so that means we are living one month away from hardship in reality.
If you are Woking & have a home & maybe children,a loan for your vehicle, bills to pay( most do)your chances of furthering oneself in adult life is very limited?
I don’t claim to know the answers, but I think there should be additional help as surly it benefits the whole society in the end.

 

[Paul_B]

Huge sigh ... there are people like that and I have met my share. They are easy recognise when a new problem is put in front of them, they are lost.

They're usually the ones everyone's thinking shouldn't have gone to university, or at least the few I met like that. Mind you there's people like that in all subjects IME.

In my university days the biggest joke was the guy in halls who did a BA in something related to English literature, can't remember what though. He disappeared for a fortnight at a time. Turned out he only needed to be in university for one hour long tutorial every other fortnight. The rest of the time he was at home hanging out with his mates and having a great time. Sure he did work at home but admitted a couple of hours reading with a little essay writing. This was what he told us admittedly with a little wind up because he was among engineers including civil which had a rep for hardest working engineers based on hours at lectures, labs, tutorials, etc.

My partner is a sociologist by profession and until I met her I too saw it a a joke degree, courtesy of Maureens joke. However if you have a more open look into it the subject is basically part of every decision of state. Anything involving humans and society would benefit from sociologists input. Even tech giants hire a lot of them. Often they work within engineering teams apparently.

All this goes to say that degree subjects can't be called light degrees on the face of it. Look deeper and you might find a lot or little merit.

 

[C_Claycomb]

Information about career options is so much more freely available now that my experiences 20-25 years ago bear no relation to today.

That said, in my first year, in halls on campus, I shared with several people on pharmacology degrees and chemistry degrees. Turned out they were there because they felt they needed a degree and had enjoyed A-Level biology and chemistry, or just chemistry. One of the chemists quit and changed course while the pharmacologists lamented that had they known what their main career avenues would be limited to post degree, they would have done something else.

Can we do a bit of friendly ribbing?
Yeah, of course we can...

At university we had a joke:
Q - How many engineering students does it take to change a lightbulb?
A - Dunno, we haven't done it in lectures yet.

They had a reputation of being unthinking and by the book.
Just a joke though.
Go on, feel free to unload your art student jibes - I don't mind, I've heard them all...

Sorry, don't know any ribbing for English/Art history since even the idea that such degrees existed never came up when I was at uni.

My experience with engineering students is that they start out all trusting, like all the other students entering university, then spend 3-5 years having as much of the trust beaten out of them by grumpy lecturers and taciturn technicians as possible. They may still have some left by time of employment, but that soon gets finished off. Get asked a seemingly simple question, give what seems like the obvious answer, and find that the correct answer was to ask more questions . Guessing and winging it are not encouraged in engineering.

RISK
Engineers hate risk. They try to eliminate it whenever they can. This is understandable, given that when an engineer makes one little mistake, the media will treat it like it's a big deal or something.

EXAMPLES OF BAD PRESS FOR ENGINEERS

1. Hindenberg.
2. Space Shuttle Challenger.
3. The Tacoma Narrows Bridge
4. Hubble space telescope.
5. Apollo 13.
6. Titanic.
7. Ford Pinto.
8. De Havilland Comet

The risk/reward calculation for engineers looks something like this:

• RISK: Public humiliation and the death of hundreds or thousands of innocent people.
• REWARD: A certificate of appreciation in a handsome plastic frame.

Being practical people, engineers evaluate this balance of risks and rewards and decide that risk is not a good thing. The best way to avoid risk is by advising that any new and unproven activity is technically impossible for reasons that are far too complicated to explain.

 

[Paul_B]

The thing about engineers I've studied with, met and worked with is how they work in engineering, science and technology but that have very wide interests including being into the arts. However I never met BA students or graduates who had as wide range of interests including being into science and technology. Indeed it's more common than they struggle with even basic maths to GCSE level.

In the company I work in there's perhaps two people who can use geometry, Pythagoras, etc. We're manufacturing company but designing prototypes and templates for production those basic maths techniques are very commonly used. Even a guy with a business studies BA plus I believe an MBA too has shown a few cases of his inadequacy with basic GCSE maths. His grammar school maths teacher would be so proud, not!

Perhaps I'm being unfair here but it's been my experience of meeting STEM graduates vs arts graduates.

 

[MrEd]

My brother is a chartered mech eng, I find him fantastic at technical problem solving when confronted with a new problem, especially the ‘this is all you have, make it work’ He is particularly good at making tools to do weird jobs out of any old bit of rubbish lying around in the workshop

 

[Toddy]

I have two brothers. One is a Doctor the other is a Joiner.
Of the two, the Joiner is by far the most adaptable and capable of designing and making virtually anything.....except he's damned all use at sitting still doing book learning and passing exams.

On the whole I think he has more fun in life too. Not as much money, not as widely travelled, not considered a 'success', but to be honest I think it's like comparing apples and oranges; my brothers are alike, but very different people.

I think degrees, that used to be simply proof that you could learn since there was an expectation that your first employer would actually teach you 'how', are sometimes very over rated.
They've become a 'must have', when in reality I'm pretty sure I am not alone in hoping that the builder, joiner, plumber, electrician, tree surgeon, gas technician, etc., that I need is a very capable person, and every bit as deserving of their wages as someone with multiple degrees.
I think too often the degree is seen as a way to make more money rather than an academic pursuit, and that students are often shoe horned into debt to achieve those letter after their names.
I think the lock downs, the hassle and troubles of many students this year will make many think really hard about whether it is, for many not for all, worth the time, effort and expense.

M

 

[Broch]

I have two brothers. One is a Doctor the other is a Joiner.
Of the two, the Joiner is by far the most adaptable and capable of designing and making virtually anything.....except he's damned all use at sitting still doing book learning and passing exams.

On the whole I think he has more fun in life too. Not as much money, not as widely travelled, not considered a 'success', but to be honest I think it's like comparing apples and oranges; my brothers are alike, but very different people.

I think degrees, that used to be simply proof that you could learn since there was an expectation that your first employer would actually teach you 'how', are sometimes very over rated.
They've become a 'must have', when in reality I'm pretty sure I am not alone in hoping that the builder, joiner, plumber, electrician, tree surgeon, gas technician, etc., that I need is a very capable person, and every bit as deserving of their wages as someone with multiple degrees.
I think too often the degree is seen as a way to make more money rather than an academic pursuit, and that students are often shoe horned into debt to achieve those letter after their names.
I think the lock downs, the hassle and troubles of many students this year will make many think really hard about whether it is, for many not for all, worth the time, effort and expense.

M

I did see a comparison years ago between life's earnings following different paths and was surprised at how life turned out to be quite a 'normalizing' process for the majority (not everybody I admit). I seem to remember that it told me that if I had left school at 16 and joined the fire service, I would have earned more than doing an engineering degree and working for a major technical company and I would have retired earlier. It takes a long time to catch up with those five or seven years or so of negative earnings.