Degree

[Paul_B]

A few years back I read that so called professional careers based on degree education bwere starting to become less well paid than time served trades. There's a few nice areas where house occupants used to drive cars for work but now there's vans instead. These are those areas a step or two up from first time buyer houses. Not the pricier but mid price in pistols areas.

A friend was an on the job trained nurse. Registered and surgical trained but on the job. She told me she was a rarity these days and most were degree educated nurses. At the same level but without any job ready skills if you follow me. Can't deal with people only medical aspects. They'll know the Latin name for every type of bladder infection the elderly get but can't detect the effects for example. Every new nurse has to spend the first half year learning the practicalities of human nursing.

Nothing is clear about what a degree offers or provides you. Or depends on degree and person

 

[BrewkitAndBasha]

A ) I didn’t go to University as I had had more than enough of school by the time we were done with that. Only one of my class not to go to uni. I was determined to join the Armed Forces and did so, having scraped enough O and A-levels to get in. Trouble was I took 2 years off to travel and try other things (outdoor training and the like), so I joined later than my peers and without a degree. As it was though, I was also steered away from my chosen branch of the services and encouraged to take another “more sensible” path and this made all the difference. I left earlier than I had planned to and felt it was all a waste of time for a while.
B ) Didn’t have to pay for any training – seemed like we could apply for as many courses as we wanted, given the right time and approvals depending on the unit roles and duties. I still feel privileged to have been trained by some really very high calibre instructors and to have done some good courses.
C )When I left the Army, I really couldn’t see what my experience would be useful for – being able to plan, anticipate, lead and make difficult decisions – there was not much out there that I felt could use these transferable skills (the Military started recalibrating all the service qualifications to civilian equivalents a few years later on which was a good move). I hauled a rucksack full of university brochures around the Lake District hills for a week, reading them by candle-light under my basha sheet and binned the lot after a week! Just couldn’t find anything that appealed to me or would help me become whatever it was I was going to be when I grew up! Then I discovered the RGS and was asked to lead a jungle expedition (finally, a transferable skill!) and I also ended up working in hostile regions, managing projects in weird places. The expedition work was fun and rewarding, the hostile region stuff was less-so but paid the bills. After 20 years I have stopped doing both and it has brought me to where I am, so maybe that was what I was meant to end up doing after all, but I never actually planned it or saw any of it coming my way!
D ) If I had my time again – well, I am where I am now and it’s good. But really, I would have joined another unit instead of binning my cherished goal to follow more sensible advice (!), I would also probably have many more university courses open to me in emergency risk management, disaster response etc. and they would have attracted me more than what was/might have been available to me 30 years ago as a mature student.

Honestly though, in addition to training and emergency response capabilities, I also just wanted to have a second-string trade that’s useful – like plumbing, carpentry, and tree surgery, with a solid foundation of military service prior to that (because I definitely needed to be gripped, put through that type of training, grow up and emerge at the other end of it much improved (I hope!) on what I had been before it.)

 

[TLM]

Nothing is clear about what a degree offers or provides you. Or depends on degree and person

For a specific one no but as somebody said it is a kind of roundabout proof for some learning capacity. In my case my major gave direct tools for engineering mechanics and structural calculations and an awful lot of other math.

 

[Tengu]

The MoD seems such a wonderful way to get all sorts of qualifications. (Closed to me, though I did l look into it)

I knew a guy who was invalided out at 24...His ambition was to save up enough money to learn to drive.

Some folk are fools.

 

[BrewkitAndBasha]

So an open question - do people think higher degree education costs SHOULD be free or is the correct system now in place? - a investment of money is required personally for an investment of education within yourself?

Perhaps a healthy mixture of free and subsidised? Seeing what level of debt many students have to carry with them for years, it's is staggering, especially in this day and age. I am not entirely clued-up on this topic but perhaps the Government and/or educational departments will start to (if it does not already) prioritise certain degree courses to meet the urgent needs of the changing world? Especially if there is a hole left in funding from the EU due to Brexit?

 

[BrewkitAndBasha]

Instead of directing to university I believe more money should go to careers advice and helping people go down the best direction for them at all ages.

Certainly agree with this.

 

[BrewkitAndBasha]

The MoD seems such a wonderful way to get all sorts of qualifications. (Closed to me, though I did l look into it)

I knew a guy who was invalided out at 24...His ambition was to save up enough money to learn to drive.

Some folk are fools.

Yes, although I am not sure what today's service personnel thinks about their resettlement training, at least there seems to be a focus on qualifying within the Forces, with skills and accreditation that are recognised in the civilian world. NVQs and whatnot.

None of mine were, way back when..but then again, the experience I gained through the training and service ultimately proved valuable to some organisations but kind of pigeon-holed me into a line of work that was fairly unusual and often a bit dodgy too. One deployment to a weird place led to a 20 year career of being invited to work in weird places! I often wished I was somewhere else!

 

[oldtimer]

??

Not sure what you mean by that Tengu.

I know exactly what she means and she is absolutely right. I have been struggling to write a succinct piece giving you the benefit of my educational studies only to realise that your simple sounding question is actually complex and requires a lengthier answer than is possible here. So, I suggest another way.

At 47, you are not much older than I was when I did my Open University degree and this and your previous posts lead me to believe that you are very like I was at your age. I was a failure at school, yet I knew I was not stupid and had an enquiring mind. I was a bit reluctant to undertake an OU degree - what if I failed at it? The reverse happened and I succeeded beyond my expectations. The result was threefold. First, I knew an awful lot more about the areas of knowledge that have always interested me through rigorous and well-directed study: second, I knew far more about myself, my abilities and what made me tick: thirdly my current and subsequent employers had evidence of my abilities, which led to fast-tracking to further, full-time post graduate training at their expense. The latter was an unexpected bonus.

In my view, you would derive great benefit from the kind of degree course offered by the Open University. I did mine a long time ago now, but I suspect the basic route remains similar. I was offered three foundation options, together with sound advice on the path of study to follow. Payment was required for the first half of the foundation course only, thus giving the option to drop out half-way if I had found a degree was not for me. The foundation course, my fellow students and my tutors helped me to select my degree path. It really did change my life for the better.

My wife had also had her further education cut short because of family reasons, and she was helped into Cambridge University by a friend for whom she typed his PhD thesis in those pre-computer days. This led to her becoming a lecturer at Cambridge and at Anglia Ruskin University. There, she taught many mature students who had come to education late and who found the experience had changed their lives. You my find a local university near you offers a suitable course.

A lot of wise things have been said by contributors to this thread and I would pick out are those that mention choice of degree subject and the benefit of coming to further education late following life experience.

Go for it, mate!

 

[Broch]

Instead of directing to university I believe more money should go to careers advice and helping people go down the best direction for them at all ages.

I agree but has anyone ever found any career advice of value? I know the career advice that was dished out to my kids when they were in the last years of school was given by a woman (could just have easily been a man) that had very little life experience, had not succeeded in any career herself, and had a very narrow view of what different people could do for an enjoyable career.

To be honest, I don't think it's possible to have good career advisors - how could any single person have enough experience of all that's available to be able to offer anyone else advice? How would a good system work? How is it funded?

 

[Broch]

To add to Oldtimer's post, I did my MBA through the OU, my wife did her Earth Sciences degree through the OU and my son, who has a degree in Electronic Engineering, has just started a degree in Astrophysics with the OU.

It's hard work if you're working at the same time (and/or have kids to look after), but it's very rewarding. However, I do remember sitting in the exam hall at the end of my first year of study, and some twenty years after the last time I had sat an exam, think to myself 'what the hell am I doing here?'

Edit: - Temporarily move to Wales whilst you do the three years though. I'll not say why on here

 

[Paul_B]

I wrote a long piece about my situation but it was a little too personal with the facts. So I'll do a safe summary. My schooling was independent grammar school. Only choice for a diagnosed bright kid (child psychologist opinion was I was very clever but lazy - misdiagnosis there but not telling you which). Out of me and my sibling I was the clever one expected to go to university. So I couldn't fail at that, nearly did so jumped at an offered course after getting poor a levels. Careers advice was university prospectus and help filling out UCCA forms for good universities, no former polytechnics for my school. Advice on clearing? Got to be joking! If you did that bad at a levels they didn't want to know you.

So I took what I first got offered. However, I heard local comprehensive schools considered my situation as worthy of assistance. Comprehensive schools in the area offered advice on what happens at clearing and even helped find spots on courses in your preferred area. So even back then there was good and bad careers advice.

Second point, university degrees in mainstream subjects are understood by potential recruiters. If you have to explain my what your degree is to even other undergraduates then you're likely not going to get to interview stage. Career not possible. Degrees might show general level of ability but that's not necessarily worth much with all degree subjects.

Thirdly, make up or taught course masters are rigorous addition to batchelor degrees but as good as they are educationally or interesting they do not make up for the wrong first degree. You'll not catch up on your career.

Fourth point is not everyone has the right character, mentality or personality to make use of a degree. There's even psychological disorders that are actually common and many cases of them being undiagnosed into adulthood that can stop a highly intelligent even highly successful student becoming a successful person in their career post university. In some ways you get where you are despite degrees.

 

[Paul_B]

Mature students? There's a PhD programme i know with profiles of current PhD students and there's a guy who started it very close to retirement age. A guy who's had a full and successful career in control engineering and fitting from a technician side not a graduate side. He just packed it in and joined his 21-25 year old colleagues at a good university studying for 4 years of research in a materials field.

So if you're 47 years old you've still got plenty to give to study. It's becoming more accepted to study later in life.

 

[santaman2000]

....A friend was an on the job trained nurse. Registered and surgical trained but on the job. She told me she was a rarity these days and most were degree educated nurses. At the same level but without any job ready skills if you follow me. Can't deal with people only medical aspects. They'll know the Latin name for every type of bladder infection the elderly get but can't detect the effects for example. Every new nurse has to spend the first half year learning the practicalities of human nursing.

Nothing is clear about what a degree offers or provides you. Or depends on degree and person

Seems a bit odd. Mama was educated in nursing to the RN level back in the 1940s. Back then there were two programs for the RN level:
1) a three year, non degree program (the one she took) and
2) a four year Bachelors’s degree program.

Owadays there are still two programs for the RN level:
1) a two year non degree program (which oddly is the same as the program for the LPN level) and
2) the same four year Bachelors program as before.

That said, all programs were university programs and all involved extensive hands on work in a participating hospital to complete the course. Do your university nursing degree programs not include hands on work?

 

[santaman2000]

Regarding the “open university” mentioned in a few posts, I have a question: is that a sort of remote learning? A combination of online courses, correspondence courses, and a few in Edson classes?

 

[TeeDee]

I know exactly what she means and she is absolutely right. I have been struggling to write a succinct piece giving you the benefit of my educational studies only to realise that your simple sounding question is actually complex and requires a lengthier answer than is possible here. So, I suggest another way.

At 47, you are not much older than I was when I did my Open University degree and this and your previous posts lead me to believe that you are very like I was at your age. I was a failure at school, yet I knew I was not stupid and had an enquiring mind. I was a bit reluctant to undertake an OU degree - what if I failed at it? The reverse happened and I succeeded beyond my expectations. The result was threefold. First, I knew an awful lot more about the areas of knowledge that have always interested me through rigorous and well-directed study: second, I knew far more about myself, my abilities and what made me tick: thirdly my current and subsequent employers had evidence of my abilities, which led to fast-tracking to further, full-time post graduate training at their expense. The latter was an unexpected bonus.

In my view, you would derive great benefit from the kind of degree course offered by the Open University. I did mine a long time ago now, but I suspect the basic route remains similar. I was offered three foundation options, together with sound advice on the path of study to follow. Payment was required for the first half of the foundation course only, thus giving the option to drop out half-way if I had found a degree was not for me. The foundation course, my fellow students and my tutors helped me to select my degree path. It really did change my life for the better.

My wife had also had her further education cut short because of family reasons, and she was helped into Cambridge University by a friend for whom she typed his PhD thesis in those pre-computer days. This led to her becoming a lecturer at Cambridge and at Anglia Ruskin University. There, she taught many mature students who had come to education late and who found the experience had changed their lives. You my find a local university near you offers a suitable course.

A lot of wise things have been said by contributors to this thread and I would pick out are those that mention choice of degree subject and the benefit of coming to further education late following life experience.

Go for it, mate!

@oldtimer - I think I will prefer to reply reference the above by private message.


I was interested in what I believe you were starting to partially argue for earlier on in the thread. Let me see if I can go find it a second :-

"I realise you are seeking information rather than discussion, but the nature of the questions betrays a, to me, worrying bias towards an instrumental view of education which I have fought against throughout my career. The view of those who wish to tie education to the work-place instead of enabling individuals to realise their full potential are in the ascendancy: this is to be regretted."


So do you think that there is a disconnect ( at least in modern times ) between packaged education products being perceived as a strong stepping to improved remumeration in the workplace rather than maybe the more classical greek Academy of studying what impassions you ??

 

[santaman2000]

Perhaps a healthy mixture of free and subsidised? Seeing what level of debt many students have to carry with them for years, it's is staggering, especially in this day and age.

Be careful with that “healthy mix” though. Our system is supposedly such a mix but it doesn’t seem to have solved the problem.

At the basic level the public universities are all ran by the individual states. The first subsidy (one that I very much agree with) is the level of tuition paid by students. State residents (whichever state you choose) pay a lower rate than non residents. The theory is that state residents (taxpayers in said state) are subsidizing the university through their taxes and deserve a lower rate. Meanwhile non residents pay the full rate.

At the next level are the various grants, and scholarships awarded for varying reasons and by various groups:
-the universities themselves offer scholarships based on
—academic ability
—economic need
—athletic ability. More valid than it seems at first glance. Attendance fees for spectators at the major athletic events funds a significant portion of the uni’s budget and often much of the scholarship cost is provided by a private benefactor.

The third source of subsidy is various government grants or scholarships usually based on either economic need or academic availability. A subset of this category would be theROTC programs which obligate the student to a set term as a military officer upon graduation

The last source would be grants offered by various privet companies or special interest organizations.

By and large the system works reasonably well but the cost of degrees is steadily rising anyway, as is debt upon graduation.

 

[santaman2000]

https://www.facebook.com/grownmenstuff/photos/a.1749520175297869/2329068784009669

 

[Tengu]

Ah, but Jim has Jack Daniels...

 

[Broch]

Regarding the “open university” mentioned in a few posts, I have a question: is that a sort of remote learning? A combination of online courses, correspondence courses, and a few in Edson classes?

Yes, and you can study from overseas as far as I can make out. Not sure what you do about the 'summer schools' though (think of a bunch of middle aged people that think they missed out on Uni social life, letting their hair down at a residential teaching session for a weekend or a week - there have been more than a few divorces based on it).

 

[TeeDee]

Ah, but Jim has Jack Daniels...

He needs it to balance out the desperate weighted self realization of what 100k debt feels like..