Catapult Ammo

[Janne]

=slowworm;1819155]I'm aware of the problems of animals ingesting lead shot but I'm not sure of any problem with a lead ball that isn't likely to be eaten? After all lead is still used for roofing, potable water pipes etc. Not that I approve of hunting with catapults though.

As to sources, wheel weights are often not lead these days, or, sadly, anything of much use to home casting hard lead. I've collected loads of lead fishing weights on my local beaches, old water pipes, scrap roofing lead or even lead scrap out of shooting ranges.[/QUOTE]

 

[Toddy]

But tin is toxic too.
It forms stable, and persistent, organometalic compounds that are toxic to aquatic organisms, and can have an huge detrimental effect on riverine eco systems. The only thing worse is chrome.

I'm a natural dyer, the two metallic mordants that give water treatment scientists nightmares are tin and chrome.
They deal fine with iron, copper and aluminium though.

The Cornish tin mine workings (pre Roman onwards) are still polluting the area during heavy rains. The problem is compounded because the tin spoil heaps are toxic enough that plants don't grow well enough to stabilise them, so they are virtually permanently open to the weather.

M

 

[Leshy]

My kids use raw chickpeas for target practice with catapults...

No lead , no tin , no worries...

Surprisingly accurate despite the very light weight ammo.

 

[Janne]

mmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

[Robson Valley]

We used stones for ammo. Unpredictable flight due to shapes.
Of course, why bother when you have a smoke pole that spits 55gr lead .22cal LR?

There are 2 squirrels that raid the seed feeder. I'd like to put a .45 cal lead pill right between their eyes.
If I missed, catapult or otherwise. . . . . a hole in my neighbor's house.
We can't "discharge firearms" in the village so the slingshot/catapult has its merits.

 

[demographic]

Ball bearings from car CV joints pack a wallop as well.
Never measured them but they must be about half an inch in diameter.

Not that I'm saying that its worth the effort to ratch through scrap cars for them, just that if you happen to be in a scrapyard anyway its worth keeping a lookout for them.

 

[slowworm]

Lead for roofing, water pipes and so on have been banned in many countries. Same with lead in paints.
No thinking fisherman in Scandinavia will use lead weights. We get weights made from Bismuth or Tungsten. Or like in my case, Tin.


Once it gets into animal food chain it only concentrates.

There's still a huge amount of lead water pipes in the UK and I expect lead is still used for new roofing. Thousands of tons are also dumped in the shape of lead shot all over the place which would be more of a concern than a large lead ball.

More of a concern would be to the shooter, handling lead and not washing their hands.

 

[Samon]

I'd give iron shot a go if it was readily available! But it isn't.

Anyway, what's the big issue with small amounts of refined lead being put back into the wild? It came from there right?..

 

[Leshy]

Lead for roofing, water pipes and so on have been banned in many countries. Same with lead in paints.
No thinking fisherman in Scandinavia will use lead weights. We get weights made from Bismuth or Tungsten. Or like in my case, Tin.


Once it gets into animal food chain it only concentrates.
Similar to Mercury.

please, please, take care of the dwindling nature in UK. It has to last for all future!

The difference in size between round balls ( to achieve the same weight = same energy is negligible.
Also, a steel shot will not discolor your fingers!

If you are happy to cast your own, use Tin! About the same size as a steel shot.

Janne , am i right in thinking you are in the dentistry business ? And if so could you please answer me one genuine (slightly off topic) question?

If lead is so detrimental to the environment and living organisms...
Known for years to concentrate toxins, much like Mercury , and known to have very debilitating effects on the mind ...

Why on earth would dentistry fillings for our rotting teeth , be made of lead?

Lead fillings are still common in many areas of the world ...

So is it ok to put it in our kids mouths but we mustn't let them shoot it in their catapults???😵

 

[slowworm]

Anyway, what's the big issue with small amounts of refined lead being put back into the wild? It came from there right?..

Most of it is locked up in rocks so nothing can eat it. Small lead shot can be eaten by birds and then poison them, hence the banning of lead shot from fresh water fishing and lead shot for wildfowl/wetlands (depending or where you live).

I don't know if anything would eat a large round ball, say a .45 cal. I would be genuinely interested to see any research on the matter.

 

[Adze]

My man, that was a good read! Gona try and find that book too.

That's the easy bit:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Practical-Guide-Man-Powered-Bullets-Bullet-Bows/dp/0811701565

Lead vs steel, in the smaller sizes then Janne is correct that the difference in size is virtually negligible. However, in those sizes neither lead nor steel carry enough energy to be reliably lethal, because of the limits of rubber in terms of speed, and they should not be used for anything other than practice. A 9mm lead ball only has just over 6lbft-1 at 210fps and a steel one a shade over 4lbft-1. This isn't enough, enough said.

Once you get to the sizes of lead ball which can be regarded as always lethal the steel equivalent is quite a bit larger - e.g. a 44cal lead ball carries about 12lbft-1 at 210 fps whereas it takes a 50cal steel ball for the same energy. However a 50cal lead ball carries 18lbft-1 at the same speed but it takes very nearly a 60cal steel ball to carry the same energy. That's about 14.5mm and they feel like golf balls compared with the lead 0.5s This means they slow down considerably faster and are commensurately less lethal at target and they're less accurate as windage and trajectory are also affected. Not as big a problem with a shotgun cartridge, but with a single shot from a very low powered weapon, it's a much bigger factor.

To put the moose and the .22 into perspective, here is Joerg, 8 years ago, breaking the foot operated slingshot record using a 91cal lead ball at 185fps - as you'll see Joerg isn't exactly your average human male and the effort required even by him is pretty immense. A .22 long rifle makes about 100lbft-1 which is a tad more than the 131 joules (96.6 lbft-1) of Joerg's shot.

[video=youtube;Bm5YOYrRejY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bm5YOYrRejY[/video]

I do hear your concerns Janne and chemically speaking they're bang on the money, as it's horrid stuff and what lead compounds do to organisms is pretty grim. But, I also I think they are a little misplaced here as, in all likelihood, more lead will be released in the environment in the UK through the continued used of leaded fuel in some classic cars than from people losing half inch lead shot from catapult ammo, let alone the amount of shot from shotguns or even the amount the Romans left jointing their, er, plumbing.

 

[Janne]

mmmmmmmmmmmm

 

[Adze]

There are a few places still and there's always this stuff Tetraboost - Makes real leaded fuel but my point was really that both are incredibly tiny factors.

 

[Janne]

mmmmmmmmmmm

 

[santaman2000]

Even if no critter eats the lead shot, it will leach into the ground and into the water table eventually. One or a dozen balls from a slingshot won't be noticeable in the grand scheme of things, but it does happen. That said, I still use lead bullets and lead shot in all my firearms. It's illegal when waterfowl hunting but I haven't done that for decades anyway.

Yes, bismuth is almost identical to lead ballistically but it's priced out of reach for most hunters.

 

[oldtimer]

Mint imperials make good ammo for target practice. Satisfying shattering effect on impact. No ecological problems except the local wildlife shows evidence of dental decay and obesity.

 

[mrostov]

Roman military sling projectiles typically looked like this.

 

[mrostov]

[video=youtube;IHP-aoQUhlY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHP-aoQUhlY[/video]

 

[Robson Valley]

The hunting concept here is that our migratory waterfowl do a great deal of grazing on dry land, crop fields (eg peas) in particular.
Experimental studies demonstrated that 3 lead pellets, say #4, force-fed to a wild mallard will kill it.
Several alternative shot chemistries appeared as options following the lead shot ban.
The wide range of prices meant that most waterfowl hunters use steel shot. Less energy, less mass, fewer pellets per ounce.

Here, lead shot is still allowed for skeet, trap and sporting clays. That puts all the shot in smalll areas.
Lead shot is still allowed for "upland game birds," which is grouse, pheasant, doves, wild turkey and so forth.
I've switched from # 7 1/2 lead to #6 steel for grouse. The entrails from field dressing birds never last 30 minutes.
Actually, there's no cause, no reason and no opportunity for me to handle lead as it's contained within the sealed shotgun shells.

Drift fishing rocky rivers, used spark plugs are cheaper losses than fancy lead weights.

Large lead pellets as catapult ammo are small cause for environmental concern.

 

[Janne]

mmmmmmmmmmm