Carrying knives to the woods - knife license...inevitably rambling onto American gun stuff

[TeeDee]

I have a piece of media related trivia. This is actually so bad that you can look on President Biden's web page and it mentions this. Assault Rifle is a term that does not relate to any weapon, it is rumored to be a mistake made by a journalist in that he thought for some reason that the AR of AR-15 stood for that as apposed to Armalite Rifle. You will see it used all over the media however it does not actually relate to anything and is a made up term.




On mental health, Biden talks about 40,000 people dying from gun shot wounds a year however no one ever mentions that 2/3 of them are self-inflicted.

Assault Rifle is a term that exists , it just doesn't relate to what most Americans can either purchase or what the other half believe it is.

Assault Rifle is a military term used to describe a weapon system that can fire semi auto or full auto.

"a lightweight rifle developed from the sub-machine gun, which may be set to fire automatically or semi-automatically."

As such American civilians ( at least the majority before Santaman comments on specific exclusions ) cannot and do not own rifles capable of full automatic fire.

But yes, most politicians don't seem to know exactly what they are talking about in terms of those things - If I were them I'd spend some with an informed advisor rather than take a running jump at my best guess.


( I also enjoyed watching the congresswoman making a fool out of herself in a meeting because she had a belief that Nuclear Subs could only stay submerged for 6 hours IIRC )

I was also surprised when I found out that the Deaths by Firearms included the Suicide statistic - this to me doesn't sit well.
Do they include Suicides by razor blade under Knife crime????

 

[Wildgoose]

The problem is not an offence you commit, it is arguing against the offence they think you have committed.
There is a lawyer in London who charges about £50,000 a time to get people off speeding fines.


I have a piece of media related trivia. This is actually so bad that you can look on President Biden's web page and it mentions this. Assault Rifle is a term that does not relate to any weapon, it is rumored to be a mistake made by a journalist in that he thought for some reason that the AR of AR-15 stood for that as apposed to Armalite Rifle. You will see it used all over the media however it does not actually relate to anything and is a made up term.


My problem is not with the law more that we have to rely on the imperfect people who enforce it and that you need money to survive it.


The only change I would like is to exclude multi-tools from the lock knife rule.

On mental health, Biden talks about 40,000 people dying from gun shot wounds a year however no one ever mentions that 2/3 of them are self-inflicted.

Ok.
So £50,000 to get people who were innocent off a speeding fine (typically £60 + 3 points) or £50,000 to find a loophole and get people who were speeding off the hook?

Assault rifle refers to a category of weapon and is acceptable, the SA80, M16 and AK47 are all assault rifles.

imperfect people enforcing the law? That’s your opinion. People are imperfect. I’ve not spent anything on surviving the law here?

on mental health, if the 2/3 of self inflicted gunshot wounds what’s your point? If they didn’t have access to guns they wouldn’t have harmed themselves that way would they?

 

[santaman2000]

First @TeeDee I originally quoted you because you mentioned “replicas” as if they were non firing. Judging from more comments I suppose a brief definition is in order. A replica (a collectors term) fills a very specific need or niche. When very popular gun models (particularly extremely collectible ones) are either discontinued or the patents expire, someone (some company) steps in to fill the niche by producing fully functional replicas.

An example would be the the British Brown Bess musket. It was discontinued almost two centuries ago but there’s still a collectors’ interest. Not everyone can afford a true antique but they cann more readily afford the “replicas.” Likewise even those who can afford the real antiques don’t want to impair the collector value of the real antique so they buy replicas to fire (Yes, replicas are fully functional and capable of firing) Another example would be the Colt Dragoon cap & ball. Itmhasmtheemtotal categories:
1) An original antique worth $1000s and this too valuable too shoot
2) A replica costing much less and just as much fun to shoot
or
3) A “reintroduction“ (when Colt saw the interest in this market they resumed production) Still worth less than a genuine antique but more than an off brand replica.

 

[santaman2000]

Next @TeeDee and Wildgoose actually no, the military doesn’t use the rem “assault rifle” either. Not in over 21 years of service (including the last 9 years in special ops where we had close joint operations with Navy Seals, Army Rangers, and Green Beret) was the term ever mentioned. The terms were always either “rifle” or “carbine”, who never was appropriate to the individual weapon. However the term does have some use among lesser media aged police.

 

[TeeDee]

First @TeeDee I originally quoted you because you mentioned “replicas” as if they were non firing. Judging from more comments I suppose a brief definition is in order. A replica (a collectors term) fills a very specific need or niche. When very popular gun models (particularly extremely collectible ones) are either discontinued or the patents expire, someone (some company) steps in to fill the niche by producing fully functional replicas.

An example would be the the British Brown Bess musket. It was discontinued almost two centuries ago but there’s still a collectors’ interest. Not everyone can afford a true antique but they cann more readily afford the “replicas.” Likewise even those who can afford the real antiques don’t want to impair the collector value of the real antique so they buy replicas to fire (Yes, replicas are fully functional and capable of firing) Another example would be the Colt Dragoon cap & ball. Itmhasmtheemtotal categories:
1) An original antique worth $1000s and this too valuable too shoot
2) A replica costing much less and just as much fun to shoot
or
3) A “reintroduction“ (when Colt saw the interest in this market they resumed production) Still worth less than a genuine antique but more than an off brand replica.

In the UK , this is the first web page I came across after typing " Replica Firearms "

Replica Guns & Re-Enactment Firearms in UK - Southern Swords

As a replica guns UK store, we have pistols and rifles ranging from many countries, and historic periods, to allow you to look the part for re-enactment events, without any risk that comes from real firearms.

www.southernswords.co.uk

From that page , from a company based in the UK...

"Whether you are looking for something in a western revolver style or an older flintlock as a replica guns uk store we have pistols and rifles ranging from many countries and historic periods to allow you to look the part for re-enactment events without any risk that comes from real firearms. These authentic looking replica guns offer those in stage and theatre to have pieces that look just perfect and are fully cockable and some can be outfitted to fire caps to allow for a real bang when firing. We have sold some of our guns to the Royal Shakespeare theatre along with many others and have always had good feedback about them as they are all produced by Denix, a manufacturer long established in making historic replica guns uk for use in stage and re-enactment. Some of the firearms listed below are subject to additional legal checks as they are modern looking replicas so can only be owned by specific people for use in theatres or those with a valid reason to own."


Gunstar - a platform for trade and sales of Firearms and Replicas.

138 Replica Guns for Sale - Gunstar

Browse Replica Guns for sale from our community of shooting enthusiasts on the UK’s #1 gun marketplace. Search, buy and sell Replica Guns on Gunstar today!

www.gunstar.co.uk

 

[TeeDee]

Next @TeeDee and Wildgoose actually no, the military doesn’t use the rem “assault rifle” either. Not in over 21 years of service (including the last 9 years in special ops where we had close joint operations with Navy Seals, Army Rangers, and Green Beret) was the term ever mentioned. The terms were always either “rifle” or “carbine”, who never was appropriate to the individual weapon. However the term does have some use among lesser media aged police.

Was it at any point being discussed HERE as being referred to in those terms amongst those groups ? - No.

Assault rifle - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Assault Rifle is 20th century term. Modern military don't go referring to it as that because it is a term for generic grouping based on its function.

Battle Rifle is another acceptable term - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_rifle

Sub-Machine Gun https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submachine_gun

Machine Gun https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_gun


A hierarchy and generic grouping of rifles based upon function , usage and spec's.

 

[santaman2000]

@TeeDee I agree with you wholeheartedly about the suicides being included with the murders although technically, they aren’t. What the statistics represent is “homicides” (taking) which does include taking one’s own life and/or taking another’s life in self defense. The picture numbers on the picture be
ow are based on CDC statistics from 2013 (the last year Icould find with this much detail) Thet varied slightly in different articles (most of them had the suicide rate slightly higher at 63%) but not significantly.

https://www.facebook.com/LPMINNESOTA/photos/a.123918280991314/1942459625803828

 

[Wildgoose]

Next @TeeDee and Wildgoose actually no, the military doesn’t use the rem “assault rifle” either. Not in over 21 years of service (including the last 9 years in special ops where we had close joint operations with Navy Seals, Army Rangers, and Green Beret) was the term ever mentioned. The terms were always either “rifle” or “carbine”, who never was appropriate to the individual weapon. However the term does have some use among lesser media aged police.

Or more accurately wasn’t in use with the US military at the time you served.
I guess it’s a bit like the word Gun, which refers to a machine gun or artillery piece in military usage but is generally accepted by the public as a term for any firearm

 

[santaman2000]

Again @TeeDee “Battle Rifle” is another civilian term. However, even then a battle rifle varies significantly from what the media call an “assault rifle.” The term battle rifle refers to a now neatly obsolete category (full size rifles such as the M1 Grand or the 303 Enfield firing full sized ammo (vs the “intermediate“ calibers used by modern weapons)

Remember we all conceded that the media uses those terms. Wiki is nothing more than just another of the media.

 

[santaman2000]

Or more accurately wasn’t in use with the US military at the time you served.
I guess it’s a bit like the word Gun, which refers to a machine gun or artillery piece in military usage but is generally accepted by the public as a term for any firearm

Like I said, I served over 21 years. 4 of those years in the UK and the last8 years in special ops. Meaning also near British troops (Particularly during DesertStorm) None of the used that term either. I never served with troops from other nations (nor would I have understood their language anyway) so I’ve no idea what the Germans,French, etc. use.

 

[santaman2000]

@Wildgoose Quoting your sarcasm (well used and I’m not criticizing youfor it) “imperfect people enforcing the law? That’s your opinion” Very true. An opinion formed during my second career: after retiring from the military I served in both law enforcement and corrections for the next 13 years before retiring entirely. Most cops have very, very little firearms experience or knowledge.

 

[TeeDee]

Again @TeeDee “Battle Rifle” is another civilian term. However, even then a battle rifle varies significantly from what the media call an “assault rifle.” The term battle rifle refers to a now neatly obsolete category (full size rifles such as the M1 Grand or the 303 Enfield firing full sized ammo (vs the “intermediate“ calibers used by modern weapons)

Remember we all conceded that the media uses those terms. Wiki is nothing more than just another of the media.

To clarify , so as to work a way through this pedantry , Minotaur wrote :-

"I have a piece of media related trivia. This is actually so bad that you can look on President Biden's web page and it mentions this. Assault Rifle is a term that does not relate to any weapon, it is rumored to be a mistake made by a journalist in that he thought for some reason that the AR of AR-15 stood for that as apposed to Armalite Rifle. You will see it used all over the media however it does not actually relate to anything and is a made up term."

Assault Rifle IS a term , no - I don't think for second you back in the day , around your buddies would utter " Lets bimble off down the armoury and sign out our assault rifles " - Its a generic term for a functioning armament that is in common parlance.

1st Assault rifle

Sturmgewehr - the First Assault Rifle

Sturmgewehr - The First Assault Rifle was first used en masse during WWII.

www.recoilweb.com

The term Assault Rifle is synonymous with the rifle/carbine most modern military issue its ground troops with. If its capable of firing an intermediate cartridge in either full automatic / semi- automatic, Single shot , Large ( more than 10 ) Magazine then its an fair to say 99% of the world will conclude its an Assault Rifle.

That doesn't mean that Joe Blow and his wife may believe incorrectly that something that looks like an Assault Rifle ( from its external appearance alone ) is capable of the same function.

 

[Minotaur]

Assault rifle - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Wikipedia is completely wrong, bizarre. I really like the bit about what is and is not an assault rifle, and then an AK47 is an assault rifle however an FN Fal is not. This is sort of the point, the media use the term and have made it part of the modern lexicon however it does not actually make any sense as a classification of weapon.
The reason I brought it up was the media make these things up and then the rest of us are stuck with their view of the world including politicians making laws.
The whole list of offensive weapons is full of things that are illegal because the media made them so.

imperfect people enforcing the law? That’s your opinion. People are imperfect. I’ve not spent anything on surviving the law here?

That was sort of my point, people are imperfect. Read 'Talking With Strangers' by Malcolm Gladwell it has lots of points about how the law can go wrong from the people end.

on mental health, if the 2/3 of self inflicted gunshot wounds what’s your point? If they didn’t have access to guns they wouldn’t have harmed themselves that way would they?

Actually it is a known thing in psychology in that most of them would be still alive because a lot of people have a method and if that method becomes unavailable they do not do it.

 

[santaman2000]

@TeeDee Yes the term is synonymous with the weapons you described. But only with the media and those who ascribe to their notions. As to the question about whether the groups I mentioned (various military groups) were in the previous discussion: it seemed the nature of the discussion implies them. The term was invented by the media, and sold to the public, without realistic input from those who actually knew.

Regarding Biden’s list, it’s nothing more than political pandering to his base.

Inbelieve the reason WIke doesn’t include the FN Fal is because it fires a full size “battle” caliber (308 or 7.62 NATO) instead of an intermediate caliber.

@Minotaur and @Wildgoose the point regarding the suicides is simple:
1) They’d find another more painful method (don’t forget said I served as a corrections officer and saw many suicides all without firearms.
2) No matter whether they’d find another warmer be deterred, suicide has no business being included with murder or crime statistics. It’s nothing more than an attempt to mislead the public. By the way, I have personal experience with a step grandson (by a previous significant other) committing suicide. I loved him dearly. That said nothing has change my mind, nor his grandmother’s, nor his parents’ minds, nor his brothers’ minds, norhiscousins’ normany of his friends’

 

[Herman30]

actually no, the military doesn’t use the rem “assault rifle” either.

Finnish armed fores do, in finnish rynnäkkökivääri and swedish stormgevär.

 

[TeeDee]

Inbelieve the reason WIke doesn’t include the FN Fal is because it fires a full size “battle” caliber (308 or 7.62 NATO) instead of an intermediate caliber.

Agreed. Its more along the lines of an M1.

 

[santaman2000]

Just to add (Unable to edit the above) the grandson who shot himself wasn’t the only family member to commit suicide. His older brother’s wife committed suicide by overdose (statistically the most popular method for women)

 

[santaman2000]

Agreed. Its more along the lines of an M1.

Yes. To be more specific the M14. The M1 Garand was only semi automatic and had a permanent magazine with a capacity of 8 rounds of 30-06 ammo. The fully automatic M14 with a detachable 20 round magazine chambered for 308 ammo was the next iteration (basically a new and improved version of the M1)

 

[TeeDee]

Yes. To be more specific the M14. The M1 Garand was only semi automatic and had a permanent magazine with a capacity of 8 rounds of 30-06 ammo. The fully automatic M14 with a detachable 20 round magazine chambered for 308 ammo was the next iteration (basically a new and improved version of the M1)

I think the point I was badly trying to make was that one couldn't be expected to fire the M1, M14 or SLR in their respective chambered rounds on full auto and expect to not have an issue getting rounds on target. With the Intermediate rounds found in ' modern carbines/bullpups ' that likelihood increases far more - hence why the they are more employed now and one could argue marksmanship has deteriorated due to a switch from longer range engagements vs fire fights.

IMHO.

 

[C_Claycomb]

Have you noticed the change of the thread title?

We split this thread off from the previous thread, having deleted a ton of stuff about US gun laws and shootings, and here you are again, talking about US death statistics and the assault rifles.