Canoes - e-petition for access

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British Red

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Dec 30, 2005
26,732
1,984
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I'm really ingnorant in this are Steve to be honest! If thats true though, an a river is blocked by (say) silt or a fallen tree, then it should be the resposnsibility of the crown to clear the obstruction!

Look forward to Chas and Wills nipping down with a crosscut and shovel!

Red
 

Steve R

Forager
Jan 29, 2007
177
1
70
Lincolnshire UK
If those who want access to waterways are willing to pay for a "river tax" (to maintain the waterways - the same as car drivers do to maintain the roads).

As I understand it, the road tax is paid to the government but the road maintenace, in local areas is paid for by the local authorities out of the Council Tax (once again, could be wrong, this is just what I heard, not researched myself).

If anyone knows different I would be glad to hear.
 

JonnyP

Full Member
Oct 17, 2005
3,833
29
Cornwall...
Ok, I am not against what you have put across Red, but I always try to look for the other point of view....
Canoeing is no impact, it harms no one, and if some basic rules are applied to, then even anglers (myself one) have nothing to complain about. Anglers pay for the right to fish the bank, for fish stocking, rod and line licence. Why should something (that if done correctly) that causes no impact on anything or any body have to pay...? Would you have joggers pay for the right to pound the streets. We as a society are getting less and less healthy and the harder people have to work to enjoy their hobby, passtime, sport, the less of a chance they are gonna partake in it. Not everything in life should be paid for, we are taxed enough as it is, some things in life should be pretty much free to enjoy, like canoeing......
If you take, then yes, I agree you should pay, but what do canoeist take...?
 

British Red

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Dec 30, 2005
26,732
1,984
Mercia
Jon,

If a tree falls and blocks the river, I assume the landowner will not be obliged to clear it?. If the river silts up, then there will be no right of portage around the obstruction. No right to stop on private land on the entire length of the river? I could go on.

I'm sorry but I have no sympathy with the notion of "entitlement without obligation". As you say, fisherman pay for river access and do a great deal to promote safe, healthy rivers. Why should others feel no obligation to do likewise?

Red
 

Steve R

Forager
Jan 29, 2007
177
1
70
Lincolnshire UK
I think the petition could be in protest of something I have just found, as I read the license fee's here Canal and River fee's

it costs £67.99 for a 30 day license for a craft of up to 18' in length, and this seem to only entitle the holder to use one area.

Now thats expensive.
 

British Red

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Dec 30, 2005
26,732
1,984
Mercia
Agreed!

So lets see a "counter proposal" - say...what...£100 per year for use of all rivers? All money to be divided amongst the landowners through whose properties the rivers run? They then have an obligation to maintain free passage?

Red
 

Steve R

Forager
Jan 29, 2007
177
1
70
Lincolnshire UK
I cant honestly see British waterways giving up the fee of £67.99 per 30 days in favour of £100 per year, and then giving the money away to landowners, even if that means the landowners have an obligation.
 

JonnyP

Full Member
Oct 17, 2005
3,833
29
Cornwall...
British Red said:
Jon,

If a tree falls and blocks the river, I assume the landowner will not be obliged to clear it?. If the river silts up, then there will be no right of portage around the obstruction. No right to stop on private land on the entire length of the river? I could go on.

I'm sorry but I have no sympathy with the notion of "entitlement without obligation". As you say, fisherman pay for river access and do a great deal to promote safe, healthy rivers. Why should others feel no obligation to do likewise?

Red
So, talking in those terms....You would want the jogger to pay a fee, along with the hiker, the climber, the paraglider etc etc, what about kids who fly kites, should they be charged for the privelige. Would you even want people who walk to the shops to be charged, what if a tree was across their path..???
If a tree was blocking a river, at least a canoeist could report it, like they could report any pollution, criminal behavior....Sorry Red, the more I think about this, the more I think that canoeing should be totally free, although maybe some test on code of conduct could be implemented...
 

British Red

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Dec 30, 2005
26,732
1,984
Mercia
Okay, we'll agree to disagree Jon. My point is that rivers are, ultimately, private in England.

Joggers on public footpaths are something different - they have a legal right of access.

There is no legal right of access to most rivers currently.

Saying "I want access to it but I'm not prepared to give anything in return" is the same as asking for the right to walk across your (or my) garden at will. I dislike the concept of wanting to use but feeling no obligation to maintain.

However, I respect your view and believe in your right to hold it. I know you feel the same and hope you will respect the fact that I will vigorously oppose any legislation such as this proposal.

Red
 

JonnyP

Full Member
Oct 17, 2005
3,833
29
Cornwall...
British Red said:
Okay, we'll agree to disagree Jon. My point is that rivers are, ultimately, private in England.

Joggers on public footpaths are something different - they have a legal right of access.

There is no legal right of access to most rivers currently.

Saying "I want access to it but I'm not prepared to give anything in return" is the same as asking for the right to walk across your (or my) garden at will. I dislike the concept of wanting to use but feeling no obligation to maintain.

However, I respect your view and believe in your right to hold it. I know you feel the same and hope you will respect the fact that I will vigorously oppose any legislation such as this proposal.

Red
It wasnt really my point of view (but it is now), its just you put across a very good point of view and I got the impression you wanted to hear an arguement against it...As I was sitting in the bath reading it, I thought I could see some reasons....
I am pretty sure that the rivers are not privately owned, the banks are, but isn't it the water authority that own the water. I remember that even if you dug a pond in your own garden, you would still need a rod and line licence to fish it, because its not your water....I may be wrong on some of that, but am fairly sure thats right. (wheres Maver when you need him..?)
I do respect your views and do not totally disagree with you, but some things in life should be free, esp no impact things, (in my opinion)....
 

Steve R

Forager
Jan 29, 2007
177
1
70
Lincolnshire UK
More (same source as earlier post)

The equivalent of a public right of way on land is the public right of navigation.

and yet,

It is a general principle of English law that the owner of land bordering on a watercourse also owns the bed of that watercourse up to an imaginary line drawn down the middle.
 

Steve R

Forager
Jan 29, 2007
177
1
70
Lincolnshire UK
I remember that even if you dug a pond in your own garden, you would still need a rod and line licence to fish it, because its not your water..

Am not sure about gardens, but my friend, a farmer, dug a pit on his land to use for irrigation, he has to pay a fee to use the water (had to fit a meter which he had to buy) also he stocked it with fish and has to hold a rod license to use it for fishing.
 

British Red

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Dec 30, 2005
26,732
1,984
Mercia
From Steve R's Link ( a good one) - thanks Steve

Access to rivers, lakes and canals
Access to the land surrounding a water body does not necessarily give you the right of access to the water, or to fish, launch a boat or swim. There is no general right of access to river banks and towpaths - they all belong to somebody and that landowner may or may not choose to allow access. However, many footpaths and other rights of way do run along river banks and towpaths, as these are often the routes people have used for many years. A canal towpath or the bank of a navigable river is legally a part of the waterway.

In England and Wales, any questions about use of inland waterways are probably best first addressed to the Environment Agency.

Access to beaches and the foreshore
Beaches are owned, although almost all beaches allow public access, often because of the practical impossibility of preventing it. However, there is no right to cross private land to gain access to a beach. If a beach is closed to the public there should be a sign saying so or a fence to prevent all access.

The foreshore is the area between the high water mark and the low water mark. When the tide is in there is an absolute right to navigate through the water (although not necessarily a right to land a boat or launch one) and so it is not possible to fence off foreshore areas, as this would limit navigation. All foreshore belongs to the Crown unless it has in the past been sold or given away. This has occurred in a few places. However, there is no legal right of access to the foreshore. There are often bylaws prohibiting baitdigging on or near the foreshore, which is probably the most common reason for people to use such areas. In any case such baitdigging is usually prohibited on an SSSI, although for the same reasons this is almost impossible to enforce.

Rights of Navigation on inland waters
From CRN News Volume 4 Number 2 June 1996
Catherine Etchell summarises the rights of water users in England and Wales

Under English and Welsh law there is, at present, no general right for one person to exercise rights over property belonging to another and there is no general public right of access to property belonging to another. The right to fish and the right to navigate are governed by the same law. The equivalent of a public right of way on land is the public right of navigation.

Historically, rights of navigation are based on commercial need and recreational navigation has followed more recently. In relative terms recreational navigation and canoeing in particular are young sports. Angling has a history going back hundreds of years. The result is that the law relating to fishing rights is well established.

It is a general principle of English law that the owner of land bordering on a watercourse also owns the bed of that watercourse up to an imaginary line drawn down the middle. The common law concerning trespass relates to water in the same way as it does to land. The owner of land fronting onto a watercourse can stop people travelling over or to that part of the watercourse owned by them in exactly the same way as they can stop people walking over their land without permission or fishing from their land into the watercourse without their permission.


So, whilst those who canoe may wish to use someone else private property for their enjoyment, in the same way that I may wish to enjoy the use of their garden for my private enjoyment, they have, no legal right to do so unless such a right has been granted in law.

Forcing such a right to be granted over the wishes of the legal owner sets a precedent that should not be set (in my view) unless you are happy to live with the logical conclusion of right of access to all private property - including your own

Red
 

British Red

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Dec 30, 2005
26,732
1,984
Mercia
And I'm going to stop now for fear of alienating Jon after several Caol Ilas...it was just the five minute argument!

Red
 

JonnyP

Full Member
Oct 17, 2005
3,833
29
Cornwall...
British Red said:
And I'm going to stop now for fear of alienating Jon after several Caol Ilas...it was just the five minute argument!

Red
Red...You ain't gonna alienate me mate, I love a good arguement, esp when its civilised....I respect you all the more mate, you have had your say, I have had mine, it would just be boring to carry on.....
 

Steve R

Forager
Jan 29, 2007
177
1
70
Lincolnshire UK
It seems the law is very messy, riverbanks/beds being owned my the landowners on both sides, water being owned by British Waterways.

Hopefully it will be clarified ASAP, maybe things like the petition that is the subject of this thread will be taken into consideration and something fair all round will come of it.
 

British Red

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Dec 30, 2005
26,732
1,984
Mercia
Jon Pickett said:
Red...You ain't gonna alienate me mate, I love a good arguement, esp when its civilised....I respect you all the more mate, you have had your say, I have had mine, it would just be boring to carry on.....
Good :D - you gonna join me and Bushwacker for a pint at the Bowman soon?

Red
 

nobby

Nomad
Jun 26, 2005
370
2
75
English Midlands
British Red said:
Actually - Yes!
I have a real problem with cyclists that decide that road racing (where they ignore both the law, the highway code and common courtesy) is okay.
If cyclists want to race, its not about getting to work and not polluting, its a hobby. No problem with that - do it on a track, the same as car racers or motorcycle racers do!
Red

Cyclists who race have antecedents going back to the early days of bicycles which shows a custom and practice that is as strong as a walkers entitlement to use a footpath, I would think. Furthermore they do not ignore the law.
Also, car and motorcycle racers used to use roads, and in Ulster and Isle of Man still do.
On the mainland, rally drivers and trials riders use public roads to join their sections together and don't necessarily pay a road tax. I don't because my Landy is age exempt and I expect most of the four stroke trials machines are as well.
There is, however, nothing quite like a tax for making people believe that they truly belong.
 

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