Bushcraft shelters in winter - no tent/sleeping bag

[Pattree]

As you can see from my posts I’m all for the easy life and simple approach - but that is just me. We all have something that makes us “us”.
For you it might be building a natural shelter or making fire from what you can find.
One of my personal prides is that the only thing that I leave behind my camp, to the average observer, is a slight compression in the ground where I was pitched. There are places where I camp that I make the effort to minimise even that. I’d sometimes prefer that it not be known that I’d been there at all. You won’t find my fire site. You won’t find anything at all that I brought with me, biodegradable or not. For me It’s no different from preferring a straight sided glass for beer, or maybe for you your choice of camo pattern. This is just me.
I’m not kidding myself. An outdoor professional might well recognise that I’d been there if they happened to came close. A dog could tell quarter of a mile away.

Leave nothing but footprints? - not if I can help it!

 

[1 pot hunter]

That's what puts me off. But I live outside and want to see how much I really need to carry. Hence this thread. Being nocturnal and relying on activity to keep warm seems better than waking up every hour and a half to fuel the fire.

Insulation trumps fire every time it’s perfectly possibly to sleep in winter without a fire ,look at the homeless small\tiny body heat retaining shelters are key to this.

 

[Ozmundo]

I was thinking about this and in some situations, if material was limited for example, I’d put more effort/resources into what’s between me and the ground than over me.

 

[Pattree]

@Ozmundo .
Even if you use a sleeping bag (sorry OP) its rating presumes, among other things, that you are “totally insulated from the ground.” (Snugpack Chrysalis)
I’d like to meet the materials engineer who can manage that!
All the natural examples I’ve seen here and elsewhere involve a LOT of work. I suppose that keeps you warm to an extent.

 

[Ozmundo]

Yeah I BELIEVE that sleeping systems are EN tested with R5 rated ground insulation. A lot of mats that are on the market are way less than that.

 

[Pattree]

How deep a pile of leaves/aspen fans etc. equals R5?

 

[Ozmundo]

Now that would be telling!

I’ve not seen anyone do actual testing on natural materials as insulation but I haven’t been looking.

I expect there is someone on the interweebs with a thermal camera and a spreadsheet already though.

 

[bearbait]

I was thinking about this and in some situations, if material was limited for example, I’d put more effort/resources into what’s between me and the ground than over me.

I seem to recall a guideline from some years ago as 2/3 below, 1/3 above.

 

[Ozmundo]

That’s for mixing gin and tonic surely.

 

[TLM]

One of the best natural insulators is pine bark (the old shield like one), not very difficult to collect but it takes time. Also it does not burn easily as it basically a phenolic foam.

Said it before spruce or fir boughs 30 cm is easily enough for even winter.

 

[reddave]

Insulation trumps fire every time it’s perfectly possibly to sleep in winter without a fire ,look at the homeless small\tiny body heat retaining shelters are key to this.

Thank you 1pot. That's the nail on the head.
REALLY look at actual homeless bods. They're wearing pile/ sherpa lined coats, (sometimes 2). And puffa coats / gilets. and german boots (cheap, thick leather and thick soles). And sitting on layers of cardboard. No sleeping bag in sight.

They're wearing their sleep gear 24/7, otherwise it gets nicked. And if they're walking around with a bag that WILL keep them warm, they fight to keep it or they lose it.
If we're looking at living with only natural resources, we're best off talking to those who actually live that way. Not the big issue sellers, not the 'hang out at the supermarket entrances' scammers. Look at the people around portable food vans, the ones that look around, pull at bit of food out of their pocket, take a bite and put the rest back in their pocket. They're living 'your dream', but its a nightmare.
And when they tell you what skills they use to survive, give them a couple of quid. Or food. Or some thick fleece socks.

I'd love to find 500gsm pile/sherpa fleece and make tops & bottoms from it. Not as heavy as wool, easier to wash, good insulation, looks 'normal' if in an urban area, combine it with a cotton trench coat or wool blanket/ coat if around fire.
Or I could just shell out for one of these cheeky blighters. It's a long coat and if you add the foot bag, its a sleep system

Loden Ansitzjacke & Fußteil Webpelz | Carinthia Webshop

www.carinthia.eu

Add a roben mountain bivi and some inflatable sleep mat. Good to go. very little trace.

But Broch is right. As the night sets in, your sleep cycle gets broken as the temperature drops so you add more warmth. might as well start with it all on.
And we didn't acclimatise to the cold per se, waking every 90 minutes (back in the day). We snoozed with one eye open. Cos we didn't have robust shelter and we weren't top of the food chain. The sleep cycle is still followed in Africa, with its lions and things that go bump in the night, with narey a thought of the cold. They have fire for protection IF they ain't huddled up inside an makeshift enclosure of really thorny bushes

 

[TLM]

The Finnish army used to have a "sissi" jacket that had a removable liner and could be folded out to something like a sleeping bag. I don't think it was a very long lived item as it was not very practical as jacket and by some accounts bad as sleeping bag. Maybe suitable for stationary activity but not much else.

 

[1 pot hunter]

Insulation trumps fire every time it’s perfectly possibly to sleep in winter without a fire ,look at the homeless small\tiny body heat retaining shelters are key to this.

Thank you 1pot. That's the nail on the head.
REALLY look at actual homeless bods. They're wearing pile/ sherpa lined coats, (sometimes 2). And puffa coats / gilets. and german boots (cheap, thick leather and thick soles). And sitting on layers of cardboard. No sleeping bag in sight.

They're wearing their sleep gear 24/7, otherwise it gets nicked. And if they're walking around with a bag that WILL keep them warm, they fight to keep it or they lose it.
If we're looking at living with only natural resources, we're best off talking to those who actually live that way. Not the big issue sellers, not the 'hang out at the supermarket entrances' scammers. Look at the people around portable food vans, the ones that look around, pull at bit of food out of their pocket, take a bite and put the rest back in their pocket. They're living 'your dream', but its a nightmare.
And when they tell you what skills they use to survive, give them a couple of quid. Or food. Or some thick fleece socks.

I'd love to find 500gsm pile/sherpa fleece and make tops & bottoms from it. Not as heavy as wool, easier to wash, good insulation, looks 'normal' if in an urban area, combine it with a cotton trench coat or wool blanket/ coat if around fire.
Or I could just shell out for one of these cheeky blighters. It's a long coat and if you add the foot bag, its a sleep system

Loden Ansitzjacke & Fußteil Webpelz | Carinthia Webshop

www.carinthia.eu

Add a roben mountain bivi and some inflatable sleep mat. Good to go. very little trace.

But Broch is right. As the night sets in, your sleep cycle gets broken as the temperature drops so you add more warmth. might as well start with it all on.
And we didn't acclimatise to the cold per se, waking every 90 minutes (back in the day). We snoozed with one eye open. Cos we didn't have robust shelter and we weren't top of the food chain. The sleep cycle is still followed in Africa, with its lions and things that go bump in the night, with narey a thought of the cold. They have fire for protection IF they ain't huddled up inside an makeshift enclosure of really thorny bushes

I was homeless for 8 months at 16 yrs old slept all winter in a sleeping bag and cardboard ground mat .The only time I refused to sleep was a freak minus 14 degree night. I just walked all that night until morning the diff between what is comfortable and early sighs off hypothermia like shivering is huge u can get good sleep without comfort or feeling like your in a bed Iff your used to it.

 

[Herman30]

Fair enough but I'm curious to know what damage you think it does. Is it just an aesthetic preference?

Imagine if all the bushcrafters in the UK would do it. Perhaps this gives you a clue what Broch is talking about.
Even in Finland where we have this "everymans right" and we are allowed to freely walk and camp almost everywhere, we are not allowed to cut trees or branches.

 

[Herman30]

Insulation trumps fire every time it’s perfectly possibly to sleep in winter without a fire.

There are plenty of people who have slept outside in the winter (in Finland) with nothing but a thick winter-sleeping bag. I have not and would not, I prefer to stay inside in a warm apartment in the winter.

 

[Herman30]

The Finnish army used to have a "sissi" jacket that had a removable liner and could be folded out to something like a sleeping bag.

 

[TLM]

From the 80's?

 

[1 pot hunter]

There are plenty of people who have slept outside in the winter (in Finland) with nothing but a thick winter-sleeping bag. I have not and would not, I prefer to stay inside in a warm apartment in the winter.

That’s your view not his thanks for the comment.

 

[Ozmundo]

From the 80's?

But back then they came in brighter colours. Sorry “Karma Chameleon” started playing in my head when I saw the coat!

 

[Woody girl]

Simon a bloke in the woods has done a couple of winter videos about a survival course where he made a shelter and had just a blanket and fire, or just a fire to keep warm.
He didn't get the best sleep, even with a raised wooden bed.
Rather him than me, ! I'm a winter camping wimp nowadays, though I have been known to camp in the Welsh mountains in November once upon a time or two. That was with tent, mat, and winter rated bag. I was warm enough, but I'm not liking that sort of thing nowadays. I think I'd need at least a heated caravan to entice me out in the colder weather !!!
I must admit, I'm often tempted in the depths of winter to get out, as my younger bones used to, but my older, creakier bones know this would be a huge mistake .
I do miss being able to get out as much as I do in the summertime, during the winter months. But its bad enough in a house due to the fybro and arthritis, let alone outside.
It's no fun being creaky! So make the most of it, and do it while you can.