bushcraft ethics

[NoName]

Just soms thoughts..
I am really not trying to force or judge people...defining good or bad..
Also i want to state that I am not pretending anything or being better...
Just trying

But...
Whats up with all the kit talk and buying of non natural materials, polutants, made in big factories by big machines over the back of exploited people in far away countries..or far to complicated high cost and high tech stuff...

For instances: Rucksacks from the far east by multinationals, cheap or expensive plastic clothes, cheap meat from exploited animals, ultra expensive powder steels...high tech hammocks..goretex suits, bivi bags,
And never planted a tree or cared for local Nature..

In younger years also temporarily been there..spended too much money, funded polution and Exploration (even of myself, working hard for in- essential stuff). Just of the outdoor advertisement and material hunger. The tell you you need there stuff

A lot of people here do so very very Nice stuff...leather goods made by craftsmen, knives, canvas and leather packs, wooden bowls, spoons, diy trousers anoraks, so Super Nice ��
Giving people real jobs back, bringing knowledge back in our own communities...
Also respecting Nature, our biggest passion...

Witout Nature no bushcraft ��

Take care

Mors

 

[dewi]

I agree that without nature there is no bushcraft, but without nature there is no human if you buy Darwin's theory.

Without meaning to sound like a heathen, I've got enough going on in my life without worrying where my rucksack was made, or whether I use petrol to power my stove. I'm enjoying the most that I can from the outdoors and trying to integrate that with a modern life where I have to pay bills, I have to buy school uniforms and where I have little choice but to buy the majority of my food from somewhere convenient.

Not to sound completely heartless, there was a time that we shoved kids up a chimney, sent them down mines... ignored the poor and health care was for the rich. We've moved on... the rest of the world needs to catch up, and frankly we send them billions a year that they waste on private jets rather than making that catch up. The people at the end of the line suffer... but hello? Is that not the same in any society built on the premise of this ridiculous trickle down theory?

As far as material hunger goes, good call. Given all the adverts that make us feel guilty for being too fat, too lazy, too poor, too callous about the third world plight... I mean damn, we need another to add to the pile!

We live in a modern world... a world that requires us to pay huge bills, use computers to work, cars to drive to that work and heaven forbid, a tarmac'd carpark at the end of the journey.

I'd love to live in the woods, live off the land and be one with Mother Earth... but my kids wouldn't appreciate it and neither would my bank balance. I don't decide their future in the world, they do. My job is to give them the best I can in the world that I live in.

 

[mick91]

I think it's mainly a price issue, craftsman made handmade gear yes is undoubtedly of very high quality, but is often far more expensive than reasonable quality mass produced gear.

 

[Quixoticgeek]

Whats up with all the kit talk and buying of non natural materials, polutants, made in big factories by big machines over the back of exploited people in far away countries..or far to complicated high cost and high tech stuff...

My Jacket was made in Columbia by ex street women who are being trained as seamstresses and given a new chance at life...

For instances: Rucksacks from the far east by multinationals, cheap or expensive plastic clothes, cheap meat from exploited animals, ultra expensive powder steels...high tech hammocks..goretex suits, bivi bags,
And never planted a tree or cared for local Nature..

Natural products aren't always best, you only need to look at the impact that growing cotton has had on the Aral sea...

I do plant trees, or guerilla gardening as it is sometimes called. There are oak trees in the Dutch province of Utrecht that are there because of me. Just as there are trees in Kent that are my doing. It's a nice idea that everyone plants trees and cares for their local bit of nature. But this is not without risk. The planting out of trees is what introduced Chalara into the UK. Not to mention the number of invasive species in this country...

Oh, and that bivvi bag in my pack, the one that was made in china? Every adult working in the factory has to plant 3-5 trees per year...

A lot of people here do so very very Nice stuff...leather goods made by craftsmen, knives, canvas and leather packs, wooden bowls, spoons, diy trousers anoraks, so Super Nice ��
Giving people real jobs back, bringing knowledge back in our own communities...
Also respecting Nature, our biggest passion...

Witout Nature no bushcraft ��

There is a reason that non canvas and leather packs became popular. They are lighter, they don't soak up water, they have reduced risk of mould, they don't suffer adversely in humid environments etc...

Whilst I have wooden bowls and spoons and the like, I don't tend to carry them with me, they are too heavy. I use titanium that can be recycled when it's useful life ends.

Just a few thoughts.

Danke u wel.

Julia

 

[Goatboy]

Julia, now I know you wear a Paramo jkt. (I have one too and I like the company and it's ethos).
Can jokeingly be smug about my carbon footprint though. During planting season I'd plant about 1800 trees a day. Works out all of you can drive V8's for years because of me with that offset, you don't need to thank me, it' just what I did.
In reality I do try and be as little of a burden to the environment. Produce very little litter, use about £120 of electricity a year, try to shop well and a lot of my food is locally grown and I don't have sprogs eating up the environment.
Just want to leave as little impression on the planet as possible.
There is a school of thought though that as human kind is natural then what they do is natural too. Don't hold with it myself but it's not just "modern" peoples fault. Humans have been mucking it up for a while. The folks on Easter Island painting themselves into a particularly nasty corner comes to mind.
Sent via smoke-signal from a woodland in Scotland.

 

[sandbender]

"...Whats up with all the kit talk..."

As others more expert than I have often mentioned, 'Kit' and 'Bushcraft' are quite separate things, there is no such thing as bushcraft kit, merely the kit you might choose to use while practicing your hobby (bushcraft).

Bushcraft is the knowledge in your head and skills that you command, quite a separate thing from whatever you might choose to wear or cart your stuff around in.

I would agree that folks should try to buy local whenever they can and should support smaller local industries if they think their wares will work for them.

 

[NothingRhymesWithRachel]

I agree that without nature there is no bushcraft, but without nature there is no human if you buy Darwin's theory.

Without meaning to sound like a heathen, I've got enough going on in my life without worrying where my rucksack was made, or whether I use petrol to power my stove. I'm enjoying the most that I can from the outdoors and trying to integrate that with a modern life where I have to pay bills, I have to buy school uniforms and where I have little choice but to buy the majority of my food from somewhere convenient.

Not to sound completely heartless, there was a time that we shoved kids up a chimney, sent them down mines... ignored the poor and health care was for the rich. We've moved on... the rest of the world needs to catch up, and frankly we send them billions a year that they waste on private jets rather than making that catch up. The people at the end of the line suffer... but hello? Is that not the same in any society built on the premise of this ridiculous trickle down theory?

As far as material hunger goes, good call. Given all the adverts that make us feel guilty for being too fat, too lazy, too poor, too callous about the third world plight... I mean damn, we need another to add to the pile!

We live in a modern world... a world that requires us to pay huge bills, use computers to work, cars to drive to that work and heaven forbid, a tarmac'd carpark at the end of the journey.

I'd love to live in the woods, live off the land and be one with Mother Earth... but my kids wouldn't appreciate it and neither would my bank balance. I don't decide their future in the world, they do. My job is to give them the best I can in the world that I live in.

I agree! I like to try and 'watch my footprint' where I can, but I don't think anyone on the internet (using a computer/phone/electricity/internet/etc) can really rightfully preach about buying mass produced stuff; the only way to remove yourself as part of 'the problem' is to literally go live in the bush like an animal and eat fauna... which... well, let's be honest 90% of the planet would be swiftly dead if that happened (I know I would lol).Also you would probably need money, and permits, and a bloody rental agreement these days. Everything is owned by someone, and nothing is free.

I do like the idea of supporting local creators and crafters, though. A shame that stuff is just 10 times the cost of a cheaper, mass produced item (and in some cases, not as durable).

 

[Johnie]

Price is a factor. With the mass produced kit it means people starting out have a chance to enjoy being outdoors, otherwise it would be a difficult and expensive thing to take a risk on getting into. I also think that as people progressive you naturally move on to buying these better things as and when your old original kit is wearing out. Then when it comes to surplus this stuff already exists and would feel a shame to waste it as a resource. But I do agree as and when you can move on to the better quality hand made kit it's good to do so

 

[crosslandkelly]

This could get good.

 

[Wayland]

Like most of us I live in a modern world using irreplaceable resources every day. Where I live I have very little option.

I do try and reduce my impact by offsetting my activities though and the biggest way I do that is through my work.

On average I work with about 60 kids a day when I work in schools. I teach them about their history and I show that people living in the past were just as intelligent as us. I show them ancient technology and ingenious solutions. I also show them that people used the resources around them much less wastefully than we do today.

That may have some minuscule positive effect, I don't know.

What does have an effect though is that without my visits, most of these kids would be plonked on a coach and driven off to York, Chester or somewhere else for an outing to learn about their ancestors. That is 60 kids with packed lunches on a big coach driving 50-100 miles each way, for a couple of hours at a busy visitor attraction.

On the other hand, I drive my battered old van (300,000 miles and counting.) to their school (Average 50 miles per day.) with a pile of handmade reproduction artefacts for a whole days education including craft working.

My van is kept in good mechanical order and though I could have replaced it years ago, I keep it on the road because in is far less wasteful doing that than constantly buying new ones. (It sails through it's emissions tests every year without the aid of a computerised cheating system.)

I make a lot of my own gear and adapt other equipment to my needs, I support local craftspeople where I can but also ethically run businesses internationally From time to time.

I guess like most of us, I also use the big multinational companies like Amazon because most of the book shops around here have already gone and I need the information I find in books to do my work properly. Mea Culpa.

Although I do not have enough data to be sure, I suspect that the fuel savings alone for every day I work, probably offsets a couple of days of my life at home, which is comfortable but not really extravagant. It's not perfect, but then again, who is?

 

[NoName]

Thank you all for your usefull thoughts and ideas.
Really nice ethics here ��
So so many bushcrafters here who can inspire and reach the young and other people.

Thanks !

 

[Dave]

I dont buy anything thats made from leather or down, or any animals products, including rabbit furs for fly tying, from China. Especially off Ebay.

After seeing videos of 'live plucking' and leather gloves made out of dogs, I'd rather not. I think its obscene that a country that size has no real animal welfare laws. And some of the cruelty Ive seen is barbaric. Live skinning etc.

Before anyone gets on their high horse, and lists everything Britains done wrong, Chinas a big place and Im sure there are many Chinese who find these practices just as despicable as I do.

I think Integrity, is important and underated. Even if it costs you something.

 

[NoName]

Agreed David
Also good to inform people because lots of m do not know.

 

[dewi]

I am really not trying to force or judge people...defining good or bad..

That is good then.

Really nice ethics here ��

Oh.... erm....

 

[decorum]

....

 

[NoName]

That is good then.



Oh.... erm....

haha!
hehe
yeah maybe open discussion is not my strongest point
trying to keep it possitive though and one can crack any given discussion focussing on details and words

 

[NoName]

I agree that without nature there is no bushcraft, but without nature there is no human if you buy Darwin's theory.

Without meaning to sound like a heathen, I've got enough going on in my life without worrying where my rucksack was made, or whether I use petrol to power my stove. I'm enjoying the most that I can from the outdoors and trying to integrate that with a modern life where I have to pay bills, I have to buy school uniforms and where I have little choice but to buy the majority of my food from somewhere convenient.

Not to sound completely heartless, there was a time that we shoved kids up a chimney, sent them down mines... ignored the poor and health care was for the rich. We've moved on... the rest of the world needs to catch up, and frankly we send them billions a year that they waste on private jets rather than making that catch up. The people at the end of the line suffer... but hello? Is that not the same in any society built on the premise of this ridiculous trickle down theory?

As far as material hunger goes, good call. Given all the adverts that make us feel guilty for being too fat, too lazy, too poor, too callous about the third world plight... I mean damn, we need another to add to the pile!

We live in a modern world... a world that requires us to pay huge bills, use computers to work, cars to drive to that work and heaven forbid, a tarmac'd carpark at the end of the journey.

I'd love to live in the woods, live off the land and be one with Mother Earth... but my kids wouldn't appreciate it and neither would my bank balance. I don't decide their future in the world, they do. My job is to give them the best I can in the world that I live in.

yo Dewi, I know, rent, mortgage, house, kids, full time job....stuck in the system
Stuff one can do still is for instance hit charity shops (lots of nice woolen, tweed and loden stuff to recycle ) and think where your money is going...so a green sustainable bank, green garden etc etc.

 

[NoName]

Like most of us I live in a modern world using irreplaceable resources every day. Where I live I have very little option.

I do try and reduce my impact by offsetting my activities though and the biggest way I do that is through my work.

On average I work with about 60 kids a day when I work in schools. I teach them about their history and I show that people living in the past were just as intelligent as us. I show them ancient technology and ingenious solutions. I also show them that people used the resources around them much less wastefully than we do today.

That may have some minuscule positive effect, I don't know.

What does have an effect though is that without my visits, most of these kids would be plonked on a coach and driven off to York, Chester or somewhere else for an outing to learn about their ancestors. That is 60 kids with packed lunches on a big coach driving 50-100 miles each way, for a couple of hours at a busy visitor attraction.

On the other hand, I drive my battered old van (300,000 miles and counting.) to their school (Average 50 miles per day.) with a pile of handmade reproduction artefacts for a whole days education including craft working.

My van is kept in good mechanical order and though I could have replaced it years ago, I keep it on the road because in is far less wasteful doing that than constantly buying new ones. (It sails through it's emissions tests every year without the aid of a computerised cheating system.)

I make a lot of my own gear and adapt other equipment to my needs, I support local craftspeople where I can but also ethically run businesses internationally From time to time.

I guess like most of us, I also use the big multinational companies like Amazon because most of the book shops around here have already gone and I need the information I find in books to do my work properly. Mea Culpa.

Although I do not have enough data to be sure, I suspect that the fuel savings alone for every day I work, probably offsets a couple of days of my life at home, which is comfortable but not really extravagant. It's not perfect, but then again, who is?

yes :0 so nice, to teach the young and show them all ways

 

[dewi]

haha!
hehe
yeah maybe open discussion is not my strongest point
trying to keep it possitive though and one can crack any given discussion focussing on details and words

If you reread your original post Mors, it was a wagging finger for using modern technology, modern fabrics and hi-tech gear... for polluting the Earth, eating animals and basically living in the modern world. Its a prod at a lifestyle that for most isn't a choice... and even if the choice was available, when it comes to considering children, its removing their choice.

Yes, the Western world consumes far too much and the system we live in is horribly skewed, but that same polluting, money-grabbing system gives medical sciences that save lives, it provides heat and food in a convenient way to millions of people who simply wouldn't survive outside in the woods. I could drone on, but there is enough in that long last sentence to argue the point for the modern world.

Ethics... I'll refer back to the last paragraph. What is so ethical about rejecting the science and technology that has meant fewer kids die? How ethical would it be to switch off everyones access to gas and electricity this winter... how many more elderly people will freeze to death? And how ethical would it be to deny the polluting production of those smelly plastics and electronics that power the pacemaker of many a person? Again, could drone on, but point made.

So the outdoors... here is the rub. The rules are set in opposition in this country (and many others)... enjoy the outdoors, but don't leave a footprint... eat outdoors, but don't kill fluffy animals... embrace the challenge of walking up a hill, but don't wear bright clothing... and now you're adding to that by saying the use of modern gear, fabrics and foods are to be frowned on. That isn't freedom... that isn't living at one with nature and it sure isn't bushcraft... it is transferring the same stuck up judgmental society we've bred in the towns and cities into the countryside and the hills.

As long as people get outside of their concrete boxes, stray from their mobile tin cans, it doesn't make the blindest bit of difference to me how they go about it. Whether its like Mick with his no gear weekends, like me with my modern rucksacks and kit, or people like John who have that middle ground between modern and naturally crafted stuff... we all enjoy it, we all get something from it and it makes our lives better.

 

[NoName]

freedom is to do and say stuff that is on you mind
that is freedom
but every action has a cause
and that is for most an inconvienent truth
plus if you want to call it point a finger...it is not in my interest...nor for my ego...
and leave child health out of the discussion friend....
but I seems better to walk with the herd here and say beeeeh

in the future I will post some stuff which I make and do and indeed avoid the path of the Cotswold bushcraft camper fans and Big Self Enjoyment bushcrafters....
oh and work on my own ethics