Burning wet logs / woods

[spader]

One of the outcomes of the regulations for modern stoves is that you can't close them down to a very restricted airflow. The idea is to prevent people using a 'smouldering' high particulate output burn over long periods

We used to be able to keep our old Villager stove in overnight easily, but it wasn't an efficient burner by any means. Our new stove is much more efficient when burning normally (probably about two-thirds the number of logs we used to use for the temperature) but it cannot be set on a very low burn because it wouldn't pass the emissions tests.

Do every wood burner in use need to be tested for the emissions rate by some authority, and pass, like cars (older than 3 years) must pass MOT every year?

 

[FerlasDave]

Do every wood burner in use need to be tested for the emissions rate by some authority, and pass, like cars (older than 3 years) must pass MOT every year?

They do not, just that the manufacturer is required to test the efficiency and it must meet a certain percentage. (80 something I believe)

A lot of new stoves are fitted with catalytic converters now though.

 

[Broch]

Do every wood burner in use need to be tested for the emissions rate by some authority, and pass, like cars (older than 3 years) must pass MOT every year?

As Dave says, it's the design that's approved to meet the standards. I don't believe there's any mechanism to test stoves once fitted.

 

[Paul_B]

It was enlightening to read that the figures were grossly overstated by the 'authorities' and that new research considers this to be a fraction of what was stated before the new burner and fuel supply legislation was brought in

Many people have spent a small fortune on upgrading their fires because of false research!

Guardian article on updated research on this subject. It says the percentage of particulates from wood burners had been revised from 38% to 17%. This is compared to the percentage from road transport which is 13%.

pm2.5 partucles rose by a third between 2010 and 2020 to 13,900 tonnes! All this is from 8% of homes that have wood burners of which 95% have other means of heating. One of the top two sources of particulates from a source that 95% of users have other means to heat their houses.

Look it is personal choice whether you burn wood or not. However if you have other efficient sources of heating you have to look at why you are burning wood in light of it still being a significant source of harmful particulates.

Having said all that if it's what you want to do then taking the effort to dry it out and store it well is a good thing to do. Not everyone does this, I live in a village with both my immediate neighbours burn wet wood and not very efficiently judging by the level of smoke coming out if their chimneysl

 

[Paul_B]

A few pointers on the wood burners.

How many are the new standard? I bet most are not as its a relatively new standard.

Makers test to a standard and as someone who's been heavily involved in testing to standards in the past, other sectors, I can pretty much guarantee it's not going to be accurate in actual, home use. Remember the dieselgate emissions scandal in cars? When the standard and standard test procedure allows for a fiddle there's likely to be a fiddle going on.

What effect on efficiency is installation playing?

What effect on efficiency is operator inexperience or operator error?

IMHO the only way to eliminate wood burning caused particulates is to not use one. Second best is dry wood in a good, modern burner used with knowhow to use it efficiently. Moisture tester is a worthwhile investment as is splitting the wood down to smaller sized pieces.

 

[spader]

I was thinking of DIYing a wood burner like in the video. But it is not possible to find all the materials needed for the project from recycle place.

So, I will be using my old portable wood burner called WilDo stove which I bought about 10 year ago. (Exactly same stove as these videos below.)

It is now very rusty having been left in the garden for years. The worst part is the flue chimney which is very rusty and the joining part of metal gone partially missing due to the corrosion by the weather.



My aim of burning the woods was to get rid of them from the garden, which was taking lots of space piled in the corners. But then now electricity cost is so high, that I was thinking, if they could be burnt in the shed in a stove safely installed. But not sure if it is realistic idea being a wooden shed, maybe it will be not good idea having wood burner inside.

 

[slowworm]

Guardian article on updated research on this subject. It says the percentage of particulates from wood burners had been revised from 38% to 17%. This is compared to the percentage from road transport which is 13%

I'm not sure how they came up with 17% from wood burner when the research says "closed stoves and open fires". The research also seems to ignore bonfires and other waste burning. Down here at least a huge number of garden incinerators are sold and along with farmers burning all sorts of plastic I do doubt such 'research' which seemed to be done just.to bring in a law.

 

[slowworm]

My aim of burning the woods was to get rid of them from the garden, which was taking lots of space piled in the corners. But then now electricity cost is so high, that I was thinking, if they could be burnt in the shed in a stove safely installed. But not sure if it is realistic idea being a wooden shed, maybe it will be not good idea having wood burner inside.

If you can I'd leave for the wildlife. It will probably rot down fairly quickly.

 

[FerlasDave]

Guardian article on updated research on this subject. It says the percentage of particulates from wood burners had been revised from 38% to 17%. This is compared to the percentage from road transport which is 13%.

pm2.5 partucles rose by a third between 2010 and 2020 to 13,900 tonnes! All this is from 8% of homes that have wood burners of which 95% have other means of heating. One of the top two sources of particulates from a source that 95% of users have other means to heat their houses.

Look it is personal choice whether you burn wood or not. However if you have other efficient sources of heating you have to look at why you are burning wood in light of it still being a significant source of harmful particulates.

Having said all that if it's what you want to do then taking the effort to dry it out and store it well is a good thing to do. Not everyone does this, I live in a village with both my immediate neighbours burn wet wood and not very efficiently judging by the level of smoke coming out if their chimneysl

I’d question either the report, or the research there. On one hand it talks about wood burning and further down it mentions solid fuel. Does that mean they’ve included burning of coal in the research?

As you said though, there are still too many variables once installed for accurate data collection.

 

[Broch]

For those of you that are prepared to read source (objective) data instead of subjective populist viewpoints, here is the published results of the study:

Emissions of air pollutants in the UK – Particulate matter (PM10 and PM2.5)

www.gov.uk

My new stove is claimed to be 80% more burn efficient than the old one. It is designed to achieve minimum particulate emissions through recirculated gas burning. On top of that, my fuel has travelled no more than 500 metres. It is naturally dried to below 15% moisture content. The fuel is from a sustainable source with the woodland providing a positive contribution to the environment. The data published is based on old burning technology and doesn't differentiate between explicit types. I suspect my stove is better for the environment than any oil, gas or even electric heating system including renewables and without scarring the uplands with grotesque infrastructure the manufacture of which is rarely compensated for by the power generated.

All slightly 'tongue in cheek' but we all have different viewpoints and there is little point quoting from politically biased articles.

 

[Ystranc]

A few pointers on the wood burners.

How many are the new standard? I bet most are not as its a relatively new standard.

Makers test to a standard and as someone who's been heavily involved in testing to standards in the past, other sectors, I can pretty much guarantee it's not going to be accurate in actual, home use. Remember the dieselgate emissions scandal in cars? When the standard and standard test procedure allows for a fiddle there's likely to be a fiddle going on.

What effect on efficiency is installation playing?

What effect on efficiency is operator inexperience or operator error?

IMHO the only way to eliminate wood burning caused particulates is to not use one. Second best is dry wood in a good, modern burner used with knowhow to use it efficiently. Moisture tester is a worthwhile investment as is splitting the wood down to smaller sized pieces.

The efficiency of a stove will be effected not only by fuel but by the design of the flue, it’s materials, diameter, length and temperature. The standards applied to a stove can only ever interpreted as a guide to how efficient a stove design is with any particular flue. When you combine that same stove with a range of different flues you will get a wide range of outcomes. For instance, a masonry chimney stack that runs up the middle of a house won’t have to contend with cold from an outside wall and will initially draw better than one on an outside wall or a stainless twin wall flue, however once a stainless twin wall is warmed up they have far superior gas flow characteristics and the efficiency of the stove changes.

 

[SaraR]

If you can I'd leave for the wildlife. It will probably rot down fairly quickly.

Depends on the size of the things, we've got heaps of stuff that is not shifting as quickly as I would have liked... All that wildlife better appreciate it! ;D

 

[TLM]

I think many people tend to mix two things. How complete (clean) is the burning and how good is heat exchange from it. They only correlate weakly.

Masonry chimney also acts as a heat reservoir inside the house and has a positive effect that way.

 

[Woody girl]

I was thinking of DIYing a wood burner like in the video. But it is not possible to find all the materials needed for the project from recycle place.

So, I will be using my old portable wood burner called WilDo stove which I bought about 10 year ago. (Exactly same stove as these videos below.)

It is now very rusty having been left in the garden for years. The worst part is the flue chimney which is very rusty and the joining part of metal gone partially missing due to the corrosion by the weather.



My aim of burning the woods was to get rid of them from the garden, which was taking lots of space piled in the corners. But then now electricity cost is so high, that I was thinking, if they could be burnt in the shed in a stove safely installed. But not sure if it is realistic idea being a wooden shed, maybe it will be not good idea having wood burner inside.

If your stove is in the condition you describe... its definatly not a good idea!

Why do you want to heat a wooden shed? Better to try to insulate your home better and wear more clothes inside the home than burn your shed down or suffer carbon monoxide poisoning.

I have taken some measures to further insulate my home. Bubble wrap on bathroom, toilet and front and back door windows, (even if double glazed) makes a difference.

Old rugs on the floor to add insulation to it underfoot.

Door curtains, I'm using old broom handles, and curtain rings I got from the charity shop for a pound for 20. A couple of large cup hooks to hold the pole up and you are away.

Draught excluders are easy to make, a pair of old Jean legs, can be stuffed with t shirts or other clothes you are not wearing . I made one from jeans that had a hole in the knee, patched that, and sewed up the ends of the legs. Hey presto! Draught excluder. They don't have to be pretty, just effective.

If you want to put the burner in the shed and make a warm space, I would be tempted to buy a new stove and proper shed flashing kit. Plus a carbon monoxide alarm. A lot cheaper than burning down your shed or suffering cm poisoning, and possible termination of your life.
If you can't afford a new stove, get a new flue pipe for it, plus a proper flashing kit, and the tester as a bare minimum. If you can't afford that, don't do it!

Is it worth heating an uninsulated shed? You'd be surprised how much wood you'd need to burn, and also I would recommend cleaning the flue pipe weekly to make sure there is no carbon build up and resulting disastrous chimney fire, if you do go ahead.

Personaly I'd not be using it in your scenario, if you've left it to get rusty in the garden instead of taking care of it, and putting it away when not in use, it's only gonna be safe in an open environment, not a closed shed.

Another tip..never install a woodstove near a doorway... always make sure you are between the stove and the door, so you have a clear exit in an emergency, so install it at the back of a shed.

 

[FerlasDave]

@Broch and @Ystranc You both said it in far better words than I could!

Thanks for the article too Andy. Interesting how the data is still being presented in a way which tries to show bias though, it shows how pollutants have reduced but the percentage has increased. 10% of 1000 is still more than 50% of 100 is it not.

 

[Paul_B]

Domestic combustion is a major source of PM emissions in 2020, accounting for 15 per cent and 25 per cent of PM10 and PM2.5, respectively. Most emissions from this source come from burning wood in closed stoves and open fires. In the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s, coal use in domestic combustion was the largest source of particulate matter emissions; coal now accounts for a very small proportion of emissions from this source (14 per cent in 2020). The use of wood as a fuel accounted for 70 per cent of PM2.5 emissions from domestic combustion in 2020. Emissions of PM2.5 from domestic wood burning increased by 35 per cent between 2010 and 2020, to represent 17 per cent of total PM2.5. emissions in 2020.

Quote from the link Broch posted of the government published report on particulates. Not far off the guardian figures 35% increase 2010 to 2020 not 38% but 17% of total pm2.5 emissions on 2020 is the same. That's not insignificant amount.

As far as stove setup and use goes vs standards I think comments about flue setup and other variables agree with my point about one thing having a standard for new stoves but expecting that to solve the issue when the likely effect of your variables is to worsen particulate emissions from the manufacturer's test figures in actual use.

There's no way around the idea that if you have another, more efficient method to heat your house then that is likely to be better for reducing particulate emissions than using wood burners in the domestic setting.

 

[Broch]

But all that data is based on the old log burner standards! New log burners are much lower in particulate output.

Not going to argue; burning my own wood is far better than burning fossil fuels or any other heating source sensibly available to me

I would support legislation that says a log burner should be installed by a qualified fitter however or, at least, should be inspected and 'passed' in the same way as an electrical installation.

 

[Ystranc]

One more point about particulate emissions, if you’re out in the country like I am then the particulate emissions are far less of an issue than if you are in an urban or even suburban environment where greater concentrations would result from multiple households with wood burners in close proximity …if we consider that those in an urban environment have access to alternative fuels such as mains gas and reliable electricity supplies while someone out in the back of beyond like me has to either burn wood or go with far more ecologically damaging coal or oil then the emissions of particulates from wood burners would seem to be the lesser evil. Electric heating may be clean at point of use but not necessarily at point of generation and my supply is far from reliable. I would be a fool not to have some redundant systems in place.

 

[slowworm]

Same here, I live on the edge of my own wood, no mains gas and electric is expensive and not that reliable*. I removed our oil boiler as I hated the fumes, I'm glad I did after my mother's tank split with 2000l of oil in it. So wood it is.

*Worth reading up on what the western lust for LPG for electricity is going to do to poorer countries as well.

 

[Paul_B]

But all that data is based on the old log burner standards! New log burners are much lower in particulate output.

Not going to argue; burning my own wood is far better than burning fossil fuels or any other heating source sensibly available to me

I would support legislation that says a log burner should be installed by a qualified fitter however or, at least, should be inspected and 'passed' in the same way as an electrical installation.

I'm really only expressing a view that if the 95% of households with woodburners have alternative heating solutions then even the modem ones are still a bad idea vs a cleaner heating system. If you're party of the 5% without any other heat source or a worse option then it's what you've got to do to make it as clean as you can.

Round here there is the situation of people not in that situation. One neighbour has an absolutely black and sooty mess pumping out of they're chimney. The other side put a brand new burner put in by his brother who is an installer and checked by another guy. It's still pumping out particulates you can see which means particulates you can't as well. Both have gas central heating aiui and have relatively new and good brand boilers. All 70s style bungalows with no need for burners. You walk through the village and see / smell the emissions from wood burners in some parts it's bad.