Britain BC Kit?

[Tengu]

Oh, its more complex than that.

In `The History of Middle Earth` (12 volumes, you will need a mob of well trained hobbits to carry it) he states that though the Noldor (otherwise known as the `Troublemaking` elves) were city dwellers, they spent a lot of time in ranging round, prospecting for things to turn into other things.

So they must have been the original camping elves.

Lets not talk about Feanors great negotiating skills and shipcraft. (ok, he got where he wanted in the end, but that was more than luck than skill.) and the less fortunate Noldors ice crossing. (which killed a lot.)

As for what the Vanyar did, I bet it was a subject Tolkien never mentions much...religion.

 

[gregorach]

Oh yes, very complicated, but I didn't want to turn it into a thesis... I don't actually have The History of Middle Earth, but I'm clearly going to have to pick it up some time.

As for the Noldor being the "original camping elves", what about when they first awoke beside Cuiviénen, or the various groups that split off from the Great Journey to explore Beleriand?

I think you're right about the Vanyar though... Signing the praises of Manwë and all that.

Wow, we've come a long way from the OP, haven't we?

Actually, my interest in pre-Roman Britain was also originally sparked by Tolkien. I have to admit that the more I've studied the subject, the more disappointed I've become - the real world just isn't as rich as Tolkein's...

 

[Tengu]

You must have some very dry books.

(Some of those pre war scholars went out of their way to be dull, I think.)

Some tomes for thee;

`Frozen echoes` by kirsten Seaver (Latest thoughts on Greenland)

`Science of Middle Earth` by Henry Gee

 

[gregorach]

Nah, it's just that real-world mythology is so prosaic compared to the massive sweep and grandeur of The Silmarillion. It's all so small by comparison - there's nothing that compares to, for example, the tale of Beren and Luthien. Even the full cycle of Andvari's Ring is pretty tame, and it's got the whole suite of accessories - dwarves, Gods, a cursed magical ring, enchanted maidens, dragon-slaying, the whole lot - yet it would have been just one chapter in The Silmarillion. (In fact, it pretty much is - the tale of Turin Turamabar bears some pretty major and obvious similarities. But it's got loads of other stuff as well.)

D'you think we might be over-geeking this now? Sorry everybody!

 

[Toddy]

I think there's a huge difference that we blithely ignore nowadays..........the original tales, sagas and origin myths were meant to be told. Carried in the mind and heart and recounted.

Tolkien 'wrote' a tale that like some great ravening beast ate up all tales.

To sit around a fire and listen to a good storyteller is so rare nowadays, in the past old tales were good friends revisited.

cheers,
Mary

 

[gregorach]

Yeah, you might have a point there Toddy. I've often wondered if it's possible to actually tell the tale of Beren and Luthien, but I always find myself in this kind of endless recursive loop where you have to keep backing up to explanations of who and what everything is and why they're doing what they do, which in turn requires further backing up and explanation, until you end up right back at the very beginning, having to explain the creation of Arda, then the whole business with Melkor / Morgoth, then the Elves, then the Silmarils, and after about a day and half you can actually start telling the tale you wanted to tell in the first place.

Of course, in "real" mythology, you've got the advantage that the listeners already know the background of the world it's set in...

I do know what you mean about "old tales were good friends revisited" though - I've lost count of how many times I've read The Silmarillion, in whole or in part. It really has become part of my own personal mythology. When I look up at the stars, the stories I remember about them are those told by the Elves. The Plough is really the Sickle of the Valar, hung there by Varda before the birth of the Sun and the Moon, as a warning and a sign of judgment.

Still, Amazon is having a sale, so I've just lashed out on the Welsh Triads. We'll see how that goes...

 

[Goatboy]

And then there are those heretics amongst us who feel that reading Tolkien is time from our lives that we just wont be getting back :swordfigh I mean I love to read, I love to read books of that ilk, I even love reading books that most would find somewhat dry ( the Iliad say), but just please don't make me re-read any of that over inflated Dons tomes of tedium. Peter Jackson also has a lot to answer for with eleven hours and twenty one minutes of shear bum numbing boredom... OK you can but it had to be said lol. Goatboy.

 

[gregorach]

Well, it's not like anyone's going to come round your house with a copy of The Silmarillion and put a gun to your head, is it? Me, I hate football, but I don't interject into other people's football discussions just to say that. Do what you like - I don't mind. Life would be very dull indeed if we all liked the same things.

 

[Goatboy]

Hi Gregorach,
sorry wasn't meaning to be offensive, I was just popping what I thought was a light hearted view from the other side, but I do find folks very protective about Tolkien, and I don't doubt for a second that he's brought joy to many, all I was saying was not to me. Hey I don't like football either.
On the broader spectrum the fact that we like different kit and some like some things and some don't is why surely one of the reasons for these forums?
Sorry if I caused any offense, wasn't intended.
You're not gonna come 'round with the book though are you??? the gun I could take.
Cheers
Goatboy.

 

[gregorach]

No offence taken.

 

[Goatboy]

I'm glad, none was meant.

 

[rik_uk3]

Read Tolkien back in the 60's, it just did not work for me

 

[sandbender]

"...I've often wondered if it's possible to actually tell the tale of Beren and Luthien..."

I reckon this guy might be able to give it a shot.

More here, here and here.

"Benjamin Bagby (co-founder and director of the Sequentia ensemble for medieval music), accompanying himself on an Anglo-Saxon harp, delivers this gripping tale (Beowulf) in the original Old English — as it could have been experienced more than 1000 years ago."​

 

[gregorach]

Beowulf is dead easy by comparison - it's pretty much self-contained. Beren and Luthien doesn't make much sense without the entire backstory... I'll need to have a proper watch of that at some point though, thanks.

 

[Minotaur]

He certainly was - but his field was linguistics and literature, not history or archaeology.

I thought his big thing was dead, or dying languges, and myths etc?

Don't get me started on the "C" word...

Ceasar, or Celtic?

Actually, my interest in pre-Roman Britain was also originally sparked by Tolkien. I have to admit that the more I've studied the subject, the more disappointed I've become - the real world just isn't as rich as Tolkein's...

One of the big problems for me is that a lot of the history that I like, is actually myth. Really disappointing to find out that the little tale about whoever is made up.

Ref: Horses.

Think they were a big money item, and nothing like we have today. Pony might be more on the money. Celtic culture had a big thing for the horse, so they were there but in what sort of context I am not sure.

Poor people would have travelled by foot, and messengers as well. A trained human is so much better than a horse, unless you have a system like the pony express.

 

[tombear]

With the whole extended family and patronage system the Britons had I think any one needing to travel would have access to a horse unless it was part of a mass migration and there was a shortage. Travel away from your own village would have been a very rare event except for folk above a certain station, and even then it wouldn't happen very often.

The Celts were a society dependent of the horse and not having a horse, for ploughing, warfare and so on, would put you at the very bottom end of society. Very good horses would be a rare and high status thing to own, like having a sports car today while nearly all family groups would have the equivalent of a tractor come station wagon.

Here comes the classic excuse , its not my period, ;-{D) but what do you scholars reckon was the rate of horse ownership?

Just my thoughts,

ATB

Tom

 

[Toddy]

Not high.

Horses are expensive beasts to provide for among a people who slaughtered a huge proportion of their herds every Winter because they couldn't feed them through it.

Feeding horses so that they are fit to ride means grain.
Most horses were more like large ponies and the animals that ploughed the land were bullocks.

Feeding cattle through Winter only really became viable when turnip and mangolds became crops. That and hay, but why grow hay if the land will support grain? Grain feeds people.

There are huge numbers of references to the hospitality offered to guests, and always there is the offer of water for washing of feet. People went afoot and when they didn't they and their goods went mostly by water.
Virtually no roads until the Romans came, and after they left those fell into disrepair. In Scotland there were few roads up until the aftermath of the '45 uprising, and the Industrial Revolution and the Improvements in Agriculture took hold.
The King's Highway was so called because it was on the dry high ground that was mostly passable all year round.

Horse = status/ expense.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[Dunk]

oooooooooooooops opened a can of worms here

Tolkien is great - read the Silmarillion then Unfinished Tales then Hobbit or LOTR.

I did go for a walk this weekend and slept out with just a wool bedroll and a fire. it was lush
no pics sorry

 

[Tengu]

Faugh! To the Void with you!

Read the Silmarillion, then the Unfinished Tales and ditch the rest.

(Scholars are permitted to read `The History of Middle Earth` but only using a torch under the bedcovers.)

 

[gregorach]

Don't get me started on the "C" word...

Ceasar, or Celtic?

"Celtic"... A horribly mangled and abused term. It's OK as long as you're clear about what you mean by it, but a lot of people use it to refer to a completely imaginary culture, or are led to suppose that all of the cultures we now call "Celtic" thought of themselves as such, or some other rubbish. Rarely has a single term hidden so much confusion. Personally, I prefer to use it only to refer to those cultures which spoke languages from the Celtic language group, but I guess that's a losing battle...

Heck, most people don't even bother to distinguish the late-BC Belgic culture in southern England from the rest of the Britons.

As for Tolkein, my recommendation would be to read the Silmarillion, then the Silmarillion again... Once you've read it half a dozen times or so, read any of the others you fancy. I still haven't gotten around to The Children of Húrin...