blades taken by police - advice please

[rik_uk3]

Boys and girls, the police come up against all sorts of crap in their day to day duty, ranging from violence to poor attitude and doubt there are many here who would have the patience or understanding to be able to do the job. My hats off to them to be honest.

 

[ReamviThantos]

Boys and girls, the police come up against all sorts of crap in their day to day duty, ranging from violence to poor attitude and doubt there are many here who would have the patience or understanding to be able to do the job. My hats off to them to be honest.

Yes i agree except in the case of quite a few of them, i could go into details but won't.

 

[baldscot]

I think you need to understand the power balance. You had the weapons. Sorry tools. They threatened to arrest you. And yes they could have. You need to offer your lawful reason. One hopes the officer on the ground is reasonable and will understand. S/He doesn't have to. In fact the interview at the police station is probably the first hurdle where you get a say. And I might add, a solicitor free of charge to ensure you get your say. Like it or not they can threaten to arrest you. Moreover they can arrest you so it's not so much a threat as a way of ensuring your cooperation. The power balance. If their attitude was awful then you have grounds to complain through the ipcc.
As I said before, as have others. You were asked / told / threatened to put the tools in the car. Which you did do. Reluctantly or not. That should have been the end of it. You actually came out on top and the cops didn't lose either. Win win.
Until the next time when the same process may have played out. And in the end as with many of these borderline legal activities you learn to go elsewhere, where there aren't other campers within a few hundred yards. I have had similar experiences greenlaning and in the end gave up. Doesn't matter that I didn't break the law. Others were of the opinion that I was and I got tired of explaining myself.
You most probably need a solicitor to sort this one out if you feel so aggrieved. Alternatively an official complaint to at least the station inspector will get you a better explanation of their viewpoint. If not keep pestering them until they get fed up with you and arrange that interview I keep going on about.....

I am aware they could have arrested me - the police can lift you for any reason they want to and then take the time to get their stories straight. I am also all to aware that the power balance is heavily weighted on their side - hence my co-operation, which was displayed prior to any threat of arrest.

Terminology seems to be causing issue for some here also - it's just to long to type mora, condor, laplander etc, but i did refer to these as tools in the presence of the officers. Yes, they could be used as weapons, they are blades, are refered to as knife / saw / axe. Not sure why some seem to focus on this.

I did try to offer my lawful reason i.e. i have a folding saw to saw the logs which are sitting next it - he didn't want to know

 

[Beefy0978]

But he did listen and let you put them in the car. You Won. I'm going to bow out of this thread now. It's too controversial for me. I think the persistence you've demonstrated in this thread may well have something to do with the officers approach.
I wish you luck in recovering your tools and in your next countryside foray.

 

[baldscot]

Boys and girls, the police come up against all sorts of crap in their day to day duty, ranging from violence to poor attitude and doubt there are many here who would have the patience or understanding to be able to do the job. My hats off to them to be honest.

i have often pointed this out to others who have had negative experiences with the law. I generally remind people that the officer may just have came from a fatal accident / murder / rape etc etc. This does not excuse poor attitude, but can explain it in some cases. This is another reason for not trying to debate with the officer at the time, i was aware he probably just wanted to continue his patrol. Hence why i followed this up at a police station, by appointment.

 

[Kwaidan]

Any idea why? Im guessing because they lend themselves to concealment.

Partly, it's easier to conceal longer length blades. But as said there is an element of historical association with locking blades and who and how they were/are used. It may have been decades ago but they are still seen as a criminal knife, and in a big city that is more than not going to be true. Plus the theory is that if you stab someone with a non-locking blade at least there's a chance it will collapse and not penetrate unlike a locking blade. Rubbish I know but!

I think it also matters where abouts in the country you have it. I'd imagine than in the countryside there are many more outside jobs work where a lock knife is essential and therefore can be justified. However in a city like London the justifications are going to be rarer as even if needed for a job, it'll be more indoor work and so no need to remove knives from site.

Where there is no definitive law things can never be even close to being perfect and the rights and wrongs just become a matter of opinion. On all sides of the argument.

 

[Wildgoose]

When you go to collect your tools ask the officers to explain why the tools were seized to avoid these issues happening again. If you don't get any response, a well written letter or email might help, again to avoid this happening on future trips.
Clearly I, nor anybody else here witnessed either the campsite incident or the station incident so it's really hard to give any advice. I'm not doubting your account, but it is from your view only.
I am a serving police officer, and have had friends describe a traffic stop in which they were singled out, insulted, mistreated etc and then later spoken to the officers concerned who stated they were insulted, mistreated etc. There really are two sides to every story.

I have been issued a leatherman tool which I carried on search duties. Officers use them for cutting seatbelts, cutting plastic cuffs, plastic bag seals, the list goes on.
Cutting down hanging bodies? Sure. If there is a chance of recovery you are duty bound to try and preserve life. Even if the person is dead once the photos are done the body stills needs to be cut down.

Please try to remain positive, it is our responsability as bushcrafters to prove we can use our tools responsably and demonstrate to the public that knives aren't always something to be scared of.

 

[baldscot]

But he did listen and let you put them in the car. You Won. I'm going to bow out of this thread now. It's too controversial for me. I think the persistence you've demonstrated in this thread may well have something to do with the officers approach.
I wish you luck in recovering your tools and in your next countryside foray.

Sorry, i felt it is only polite to answer questions and clarify any points raised by those who have taken the time to respond. Thank you for your input.

 

[Mick w.]

I don't think Baldscot has much to worry about, as long as he continues to be reasonable in his dealings. It's always a good idea, in any 'confrontation', to let the other person have an avenue of escape without losing face, so to speak. In this instance, I would think that the two officers who took the stuff at the station were landed with this siuation out of the blue and with no prior knowledge of the case. They have erred on the side of caution as they, unfortunatley, are in a position where they have to cover their arses.
Now, the police have a load of potential weapons/tools which they aren't really interested in, but don't want to be seen as in the wrong (who does?) so I think your 'Mr Reasonable' approach will pay off in the end, and hopefully everyone concerned will be able to write it off as a 'misunderstanding'.
Good luck with it!

 

[baldscot]

When you go to collect your tools ask the officers to explain why the tools were seized to avoid these issues happening again. If you don't get any response, a well written letter or email might help, again to avoid this happening on future trips.
Clearly I, nor anybody else here witnessed either the campsite incident or the station incident so it's really hard to give any advice. I'm not doubting your account, but it is from your view only.
I am a serving police officer, and have had friends describe a traffic stop in which they were singled out, insulted, mistreated etc and then later spoken to the officers concerned who stated they were insulted, mistreated etc. There really are two sides to every story.

I have been issued a leatherman tool which I carried on search duties. Officers use them for cutting seatbelts, cutting plastic cuffs, plastic bag seals, the list goes on.
Cutting down hanging bodies? Sure. If there is a chance of recovery you are duty bound to try and preserve life. Even if the person is dead once the photos are done the body stills needs to be cut down.

Please try to remain positive, it is our responsability as bushcrafters to prove we can use our tools responsably and demonstrate to the public that knives aren't always something to be scared of.

Thanks for your comment. What you describe re: explanation is exactly what i was looking for when i went to the station. Hopefully it will go this way if / when i receive their call.
I honestly thought i was using the tools responsibly, even offering to demonstrate their use.
I apologise if this seems argumentative, but does the Leatherman have a locking blade (please excuse my ignorance)? If so, surely carrying one just in case it is required in the circumstances you describe, is equally against the law?

I hope i'm not causing any offence to anyone here. As a newcomer i will gladly cease posting until i can inform of the outcome if the this would please the majority. As i said, i thought it only polite to respond.

 

[baldscot]

I don't think Baldscot has much to worry about, as long as he continues to be reasonable in his dealings. It's always a good idea, in any 'confrontation', to let the other person have an avenue of escape without losing face, so to speak. In this instance, I would think that the two officers who took the stuff at the station were landed with this siuation out of the blue and with no prior knowledge of the case. They have erred on the side of caution as they, unfortunatley, are in a position where they have to cover their arses.
Now, the police have a load of potential weapons/tools which they aren't really interested in, but don't want to be seen as in the wrong (who does?) so I think your 'Mr Reasonable' approach will pay off in the end, and hopefully everyone concerned will be able to write it off as a 'misunderstanding'.
Good luck with it!

Cheers, i hope you're right.

 

[awarner]

On a recent scout camp with bushwacker bob we went out of the camp and I was about to lock away the blade I had when my assistant leader who is a member of the force advised me that as I was carrying it correctly and had a purpose of use then it was ok.

Generally though if I am not using a blade or axe at the time it will be locked in a tool box for safe keeping also keeps them safe incase of light fingers on a busy camp not that it should happen.

On another note a lad at work who wants to be a copper, currently one of the community specials thinks he now knows the law and would be over zelous if he was there. He's tried to threaten me with being nicked because my blades were locked up in my car before a scout evening so over eager coppers are about most probably due to ignorance and erring on the side of caution.

Still hope you get them back, good luck.

Regarding lock knives its more to carrying them in a general manner for everyday use like a penknife. There was a review from an air rifle magazine last year about an American made blade which acts like a lock knife but is legal as the blade has a grip point so your finger technically locks the blade.

Just a personal observation from my experience.

 

[Wildgoose]

No offence taken at all.
Leatherman tools, in the main have locking blades. I carried it as part of my equipment for use at work. I was issued it, and was never challenged about it. Officers have a lawful purpose to carry batons (a made offensive weapon) and gas (a section 5 firearm) so always felt I could justify it's place on my person. Now out of uniform response I don't carry it anymore.
I have come across many people carrying Multi tools in public places, tradesmen mostly. Unless the tool was being used in a threatening manner I'd probably not take any further action. In my experience, most knife crime is conducted using cheap kitchen knives and the like, not £100 plus tools.
My brother, a computer tech carrys the leatherman wave I bought him all the time. He was stopped a few times but has never been arrested for it, he is however 32 years old and of good character.
Like I said before, hopefully you can get an explanation.

The above post is just my opinion, not nessesarily the view of the police service I work for.

 

[boatman]

The only reason that the answer is 'frequently' is because I sometimes forget to pick

Woodsmen may well have an axe with them. We have a historical re-enactment group locally who can be seen carrying swords and axes, lawful reason in my book when going to and from there events.

You are trying to extend the law. A reenactor who is a member of a group of three or more with Public Liability insurance may have swords etc. there is no mention of and no need to prove that one is going to an event. The exemption is absolute.

 

[gsfgaz]

Good luck in getting yer sharps back m8 ,
i think u'll need it ...

 

[baldscot]

No offence taken at all.
Leatherman tools, in the main have locking blades. I carried it as part of my equipment for use at work. I was issued it, and was never challenged about it. Officers have a lawful purpose to carry batons (a made offensive weapon) and gas (a section 5 firearm) so always felt I could justify it's place on my person. Now out of uniform response I don't carry it anymore.
I have come across many people carrying Multi tools in public places, tradesmen mostly. Unless the tool was being used in a threatening manner I'd probably not take any further action. In my experience, most knife crime is conducted using cheap kitchen knives and the like, not £100 plus tools.
My brother, a computer tech carrys the leatherman wave I bought him all the time. He was stopped a few times but has never been arrested for it, he is however 32 years old and of good character.
Like I said before, hopefully you can get an explanation.

The above post is just my opinion, not nessesarily the view of the police service I work for.

Thanks for your reply, i appreciate your opinion is based on your interpretation of the law (and sounds reasonable). I was recently given an example of this when a man on a bus was arrested for having an offensive weapon. This was a large knife, which he had on his possession for work purposes (a dock worker who cuts large rope etc). The officer said he would have been fine if the knife was in his bag, however he was sitting "playing" with it in full view of the rest of the passengers. This sounds reasonable to me. The individuals interpretation of "reasonable" seems to be the main problem i am experiencing. Thanks again

 

[baldscot]

Good luck in getting yer sharps back m8 ,
i think u'll need it ...

Cheers buddy

 

[Silverclaws]

No offence taken at all.
Leatherman tools, in the main have locking blades. I carried it as part of my equipment for use at work. I was issued it, and was never challenged about it. Officers have a lawful purpose to carry batons (a made offensive weapon) and gas (a section 5 firearm) so always felt I could justify it's place on my person. Now out of uniform response I don't carry it anymore.
I have come across many people carrying Multi tools in public places, tradesmen mostly. Unless the tool was being used in a threatening manner I'd probably not take any further action. In my experience, most knife crime is conducted using cheap kitchen knives and the like, not £100 plus tools.
My brother, a computer tech carrys the leatherman wave I bought him all the time. He was stopped a few times but has never been arrested for it, he is however 32 years old and of good character.
Like I said before, hopefully you can get an explanation.

The above post is just my opinion, not nessesarily the view of the police service I work for.

]

But as a copper, does it not dismay you with what you hear when others describe their experiences and with that know it those who experience questionable behaviour from the police go from being supportive to not wanting to have anything to do with them, I am one of those, and I went from a Lancashire constabulary recruit in the 1980's right through to now where I simply don't trust them and wonder who is the more offensive the criminal or the policeman.

And yes the police do create fear, but not with those who should feel fear through criminal behaviour, but those that feel what they should not are those that are not criminals, now I do understand in the police force just like any other organisation where authority is involved the wrong kind of people end up, perhaps it is them that are bringing the police name into disrepute, but if it is, you have an awful lot of them, too many perhaps and because of them you are losing respect.

I was recently abused by a policeman in my own home and the experience has left me confused and untrusting of those who at one time I believed in, sad isn't it, but the police created that distrust.

 

[Wildgoose]

Out of curiosity, how did people react to the man with the knife on the bus? Did police board the bus because of this male?
Like I said before, it's up to all of us to show a mature attitude towards knives.

Silverclaws, sorry to hear of your bad experience. I am just one man in a massive oganisation. I try to provide the best service I can to the public. I try to be as reasonable as I can in the situations I am faced with. Unless I was there or it was me who dealt with it I try not to comment. As an ex copper I'm sure you understand.

 

[baldscot]

Out of curiosity, how did people react to the man with the knife on the bus? Did police board the bus because of this male?
Like I said before, it's up to all of us to show a mature attitude towards knives.

Sorry, that's all i was told - just an anecdote from a family member when i was telling them about this situation.