blades taken by police - advice please

[Wildgoose]

No probs mate. Just wondering how those around him reacted.

 

[brambles]

@ baldscot - the PDSO are solicitors employed by the Scottish Legal Aid Board in an attempt to put the rest of us out of business because they claim that they provide a more cost efficient service, when the opposite is demonstrably true as they provide support staff, offices, pensions, telecomms, company cars, interpreters on top of the cost of legal aid granted when the rest of us have to pay for those things from our legal aid grants! As I said, I wholly disagree with their concept but they are also solicitors ( although often they are the solicitors who could'nt get or keep jobs in actual law firms ... ).

If you are going to see the police this week , I would suggest that when you arrive you just tell them politely that you are there to collect your belongings and see what they say from there.

 

[baldscot]

@ baldscot - the PDSO are solicitors employed by the Scottish Legal Aid Board in an attempt to put the rest of us out of business because they claim that they provide a more cost efficient service, when the opposite is demonstrably true as they provide support staff, offices, pensions, telecomms, company cars, interpreters on top of the cost of legal aid granted when the rest of us have to pay for those things from our legal aid grants! As I said, I wholly disagree with their concept but they are also solicitors ( although often they are the solicitors who could'nt get or keep jobs in actual law firms ... ).

If you are going to see the police this week , I would suggest that when you arrive you just tell them politely that you are there to collect your belongings and see what they say from there.

cheers for the explanation and advice.

 

[norca]

ive gone through this page by page as out door types and bushcrafters its no wonda how and why this country is so
fffffffffffff uuu messed up :why:

 

[rik_uk3]

i have often pointed this out to others who have had negative experiences with the law. I generally remind people that the officer may just have came from a fatal accident / murder / rape etc etc. This does not excuse poor attitude, but can explain it in some cases. This is another reason for not trying to debate with the officer at the time, i was aware he probably just wanted to continue his patrol. Hence why i followed this up at a police station, by appointment.

We only have the your version of events, so we really have no true idea who had the bad attitude, what was said, the location etc.

Good luck getting your items back.

 

[Silverclaws]

ive gone through this page by page as out door types and bushcrafters its no wonda how and why this country is so
fffffffffffff uuu messed up :why:

Please explain.

 

[EssexMonk]

I can't believe what has happened back home (UK) since I left. How do fishermen filet their catch now? use you teeth? How does a hunter dress out his game? there seems to be no common sense any more!I took out my leatherman and cut a young relatives burger in half, the reaction I got from my cousin you would have thought I was packing a hand gun.

 

[shortymcsteve]

Well, the first half of this was quite a read.. lot's of riled up people in here. Im glad most people finally worked out their differences.
I don't understand what was so confusing about the original post, i understood everything perfect.
Anyway, i hope you get your stuff back!! Being that i also live in central Scotland this is somewhat worrying/interesting to me. The only knife i own is my mora 510 and i sometimes carry it with me in the woods. I have yet to have any issues with the police however i am always wondering if i should carry it as i am worried about what would happen if they happen to stop me. Being 20 years old does not help ether. In fact i have a friend of the same age who bought a Gransfors Axe last year had has yet to use it it the woods, only at home so far. He told me not so long ago he went to the police station to ask about it and they also told him to bring it down so they can advise him.. can only imagine what would happen!

 

[norca]

Please explain.

do i need to

 

[Mick w.]

It would help!

 

[shaggystu]

....They don't issue me with boots, socks or underwear either but they too have there uses ;-)....

how is that pertinent at all? boots, socks, underwear etc. are in no way regulated by any acts of parliament as far as i'm aware. your answer was purely facetious and really not how i would hope a serving police officer to respond to an genuine question (although i feel compelled to say that although i would hope for a better response than the one i got i'd never be so foolish as to expect one)

...When, for example, searching a farmers car one often comes across fencing tools and a locknife - they are tools of the job - and the job is being done.

Woodsmen may well have an axe with them. We have a historical re-enactment group locally who can be seen carrying swords and axes, lawful reason in my book when going to and from there events.

i undertsand those latter two points just fine, what i don't understand is what is the immediate need for a police officer to be carrying a locking knife? if i'm walking down the road with a leatherman on my belt and you form the opinion that it is an offensive weapon i.e. you feel threatened by it, then you could arrest me for possession of an offensive weapon. if you're walking down the road with a leatherman on your belt and i form the opinion that i feel threatened by it what am i supposed to do? i'm asking your advice here as a serving police officer, what do i do if i feel threatened by a police officer? in my opinion a police officer has no good reason at all to be carrying a locking knife, if he/she did then he/she would've been issued with one, you've informed me that they haven't been, so there can be no immediate need for it to my mind, so you're breaking the law, police officers breaking the law makes me feel threatened. so i feel threatened, by a person, specifically due to the bladed weapon (i know that it's a weapon because you wear it on your belt with all your other weapons i.e. the extendable baton and pepper spray, maybe even a taser, all of which are defined in law as weapons) that they are carrying in full display in public. do the police receive some kind of special dispensation? you're allowed to carry all sorts of things in public that members of the public aren't, maybe lock knifes fall into that category?

 

[baldscot]

Well, the first half of this was quite a read.. lot's of riled up people in here. Im glad most people finally worked out their differences.
I don't understand what was so confusing about the original post, i understood everything perfect.
Anyway, i hope you get your stuff back!! Being that i also live in central Scotland this is somewhat worrying/interesting to me. The only knife i own is my mora 510 and i sometimes carry it with me in the woods. I have yet to have any issues with the police however i am always wondering if i should carry it as i am worried about what would happen if they happen to stop me. Being 20 years old does not help ether. In fact i have a friend of the same age who bought a Gransfors Axe last year had has yet to use it it the woods, only at home so far. He told me not so long ago he went to the police station to ask about it and they also told him to bring it down so they can advise him.. can only imagine what would happen!

Cheers for the comment mate. I'll be posting the outcome of this so hopefully it might help you and your friend. As for his axe - tell him not to go near police station with it, not if he wants to keep it!

 

[nigeltm]

... you form the opinion that it is an offensive weapon i.e. you feel threatened by it, then you could arrest me for possession of an offensive weapon. ...

Small point (not trying to be pedantic, although I am accused of it quite a bit!).

In that scenario you cannot lawfully be arrested for offensive weapon. Feeling threatened is not part of the criteria for a offensive weapon. To be an offensive weapon the knife, stick, bottle, rolled up newspaper, etc. must meet one of three criteria.

Taken from the CPS website:

Possession of an Offensive Weapon
Section 1 of the Prevention of Crime Act 1953 prohibits the possession in any public place of an offensive weapon without lawful authority or excuse. (Archbold 24-106a.)

The term 'offensive weapon' is defined as: "any article made or adapted for use to causing injury to the person, or intended by the person having it with him for such use".

The courts have been reluctant to find many weapons as falling within the first limb of the definition and reliance should usually be placed upon the second. On that basis, it must be shown that the defendant intended to use the article for causing injury (Archbold 24-115).
Lord Lane, CJ. in R v Simpson (C) (78 Cr. App. R. 115), identified three categories of offensive weapons:

• those made for causing injury to the person i.e. offensive per se. For examples of weapons that are offensive per se, see Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Offensive Weapons) Order 1988, (Stones 8-22745) and case law decisions. (Archbold 24-116). The Criminal Justice Act (1988) (Offensive Weapons) (Amendment) Order 2008 came into force on 6th April 2008 with the effect that a sword with a curved blade of 50cm or more (samurai sword), has been added to the schedule to the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Offensive Weapons) Order 1988;
• those adapted for such a purpose;
• those not so made or adapted, but carried with the intention of causing injury to the person.

In the first two categories, the prosecution does not have to prove that the defendant had the weapon with him for the purpose of inflicting injury: if the jury are sure that the weapon is offensive per se, the defendant will only be acquitted if he establishes lawful authority or reasonable excuse.

So in the case of a Leatherman (which is not designed or adapted to be a weapon) the criteria to be met is that you are showing intent to use it as a weapon. If you have it in your hand and threaten someone, wave it in their face or in some other way show intent then it's a fair cop. Even if the blade is closed and you have it in your closed fist to add weight to a punch or you just say to someone that you have a knife on your belt and you'll use it on them, that shows intent and you have committed an offence.

However, there is a locking blade on the Leatherman then you need a reasonable excuse for having it in a public place. If not then you can be arrested for having a bladed or pointed article in a public place.

Possession of Blades/Points
Section 139 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 prohibits having with you, in a public place of any article which has a blade or is sharply pointed, (including a folding pocket knife if the cutting edge of its blade exceeds 7.62cm/3 inches) (Archbold 24-125).
Section 139A of the 1988 Act extends the geographical scope of both of the above offences to school premises.
For the purposes of sections 139 and 139A of the Act:

• a butterknife, with no cutting edge and no point is a bladed article; (Booker v DPP 169J.P. 368, DC);
• a screwdriver is not a bladed article; (R v Davis [1998] Crim L.R. 564 CA);
• a "lock knife" does not come into the category of "folding pocket knife" because it is not immediately foldable at all times; (R v Deegan [1998] 2 Cr. App. R. 121 CA).
  

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/l_to_o/offensive_weapons_knives_bladed_and_pointed_articles/

I hope this helps and hasn't been too boring!

 

[baldscot]

I can't believe what has happened back home (UK) since I left. How do fishermen filet their catch now? use you teeth? How does a hunter dress out his game? there seems to be no common sense any more!I took out my leatherman and cut a young relatives burger in half, the reaction I got from my cousin you would have thought I was packing a hand gun.

The law, as i have interpreted it anyway, should make it ok to use / possess a knife in these situations - however i also thought i was within the law so shows what i know! As its down to how the individual officer deals with any given scenario, you will either be lucky / unlucky. I have been unlucky - but still hoping (maybe naively) for a favourable outcome.

 

[shaggystu]

thanks for that nigeltm, as it happens i've just sat and read the same page on the CPS website i was always of the opinion (wrongly it would seem) that any item that causes a person to feel threatened could be classed as an offensive weapon. if i watched a uniformed police officer walk down the street carrying a pick helve (lets hope that never happens again, it was terrifying!) then i would feel threatened, even though a pick helve isn't an offensive weapon per se. does an item (excluding of course those items already defined as offensive weapons by acts of parliament) actually have to be used offensively before it is classed as an offensive weapon? and if so what is classed as offensively? if i were to throw a brick at someone and injure them then that would be classed of assault with an offensive weapon wouldn't it? or have i mis-understood this issue completely?

 

[baldscot]

thanks for that nigeltm, as it happens i've just sat and read the same page on the CPS website i was always of the opinion (wrongly it would seem) that any item that causes a person to feel threatened could be classed as an offensive weapon. if i watched a uniformed police officer walk down the street carrying a pick helve (lets hope that never happens again, it was terrifying!) then i would feel threatened, even though a pick helve isn't an offensive weapon per se. does an item (excluding of course those items already defined as offensive weapons by acts of parliament) actually have to be used offensively before it is classed as an offensive weapon? and if so what is classed as offensively? if i were to throw a brick at someone and injure them then that would be classed of assault with an offensive weapon wouldn't it? or have i mis-understood this issue completely?

Quite complex (and confusing) isn't it. I could not understand why the officer had a problem with a laplander saw, but was happy for me to continue using a 1 1/2 lb hammer, along with a splitting wedge (which does have a sharp edge on it). Surely, if i intended to use them as weapons, i could do as much damage, if not more, with these items.

 

[Crazivan]

When are you going back? This is now the 4th day that you've been without the equipment that they had no right to confiscate (in the sense that you were doing nothing illegal).

I wouldn't have left it that long personally. In my view, the longer you wait, the greater the chances are that these will be misplaced.

 

[baldscot]

When are you going back? This is now the 4th day that you've been without the equipment that they had no right to confiscate (in the sense that you were doing nothing illegal).

I wouldn't have left it that long personally. In my view, the longer you wait, the greater the chances are that these will be misplaced.

I will be contacting them tommorow - was advised that this would be a reasonable amount of time for them to contact the officer i initially dealt with, taking into account shifts / weekend etc. Trying to get a balance between getting what i want and being seen as a nuisance

 

[shaggystu]

.....I could not understand why the officer had a problem with a laplander saw, but was happy for me to continue using a 1 1/2 lb hammer, along with a splitting wedge (which does have a sharp edge on it).....

i think that's probably because their grasp of the law is about as tenuous as ours

 

[nigeltm]

... does an item (excluding of course those items already defined as offensive weapons by acts of parliament) actually have to be used offensively before it is classed as an offensive weapon? and if so what is classed as offensively? ...

You don't even have to have the item (knife or brick) on your person, let alone use it, for it to be an offensive weapon. There was the case a couple of years ago where a man in a pub threatened to use a knife he had in his car as a weapon against another person (there is a very long thread on BCUK about it). He was stopped by Police while driving away and breath tested. During the stop the Officer found a Buck lock knife in the car. This was sufficient grounds for arrest and conviction in court. The knife was in a public place (in law your car is a public place) and he had shown intent by threatening another person and mentioning the knife.

Supt Meakin said in his statement: "At 11.45pm on February 23, police received a report that while Mr Knowles was in the Highweek Inn he had made an alleged threat that he was going to use a knife to harm someone.

"The police were advised that Mr Knowles had left the address in a vehicle.

"The vehicle was stopped a short while later by my police officers, where Mr Knowles was arrested for supplying a positive breath test. A further test at the police station proved he was under the legal drink drive limit."

"The vehicle was searched for a weapon and a Buck Whittaker lock knife was found. The knife is illegal and has a serrated edge."

http://www.thisisdevon.co.uk/Police...it-knife-man/story-11739409-detail/story.html

... if i were to throw a brick at someone and injure them then that would be classed of assault with an offensive weapon wouldn't it? or have i mis-understood this issue completely?

This depends on WHY you threw the brick.

If you threw the brick at a person with the intent to hit them then yes, the brick is an offensive weapon.

If you threw the brick at a dog that was attacking your child, missed and accidentally hit the dog owner who as holding the lead then there is no intent and the brick is not an offensive weapon.

However, proving or disproving intent if arrested is the difficult bit. If the situation is uncertain it all comes down to context. Before throwing the brick did you scream at the dog owner that if they didn't pull the dog off they'd get a good kicking? This would look bad for you and could lead to arrest.

Another however! Even if the brick could be classed as an offensive weapon you'd probably face an assault charge as it is a more serious offence. While the offensive weapon charge may be forgotten.

This is a complex issue and all comes down to the individual situation. What is certain is that the personal opinions of the Police officer(s) involved, media pressure, CPS charging guidance, force policy and political posturing by the government all have an impact on whether or not you could be arrested or asked to quietly disown and hand over the big bad weapon!

For the sake of disclosure, I'm a computer geek and not a Police officer or in the legal profession. I know a bit about this subject after digging around on the UKPoliceOnline forum, general Googling and talking to some South Wales Police officers who are on the MR Team. We once had a very spirited discussion I asked one officer for opinions on offensive weapons and lock knives. Lets just say we did not agree and I did some research to prove him wrong!

Sorry for another essay!