blades taken by police - advice please

[ebt.]

The courts really don't like lock knives.

Any idea why? Im guessing because they lend themselves to concealment.

 

[Corso]

becasue they read the papers and are as miss-informed as much as the general public

 

[Bigfoot]

Ive been a Police Officer for nine years, and this March I passed a promotion exam in the top 4% of the country. Trust me on this, ignorance of an offence is not a defence.

Absolutely. Indeed. Ignorantia Lex Nemo Excusat (Ignorance of the Law excuses no-one). That was drummed into me when I was studying Law.

 

[shaggystu]

.....They must be carried for an immediate purpose so carrying one about 'in case I decide to go camping' won't do......

.......At work I frequently carry a multi tool with locking knife - it has been useful to force entry and cut down hanging bodies for example, but would not carry it off duty.......

this is a point that's always interested me, whenever i see police officers in uniform they tend to be carrying a leatherman or similar type of tool, why's that then? as you say you frequently carry a locking multi-tool when you're on duty, frequently being the important bit here to my mind. you don't always carry it, so i assume (please correct me if i'm wrong) that it's not part of your every day issue kit, what's the "immediate purpose"? were you issued with your multi-tool or is it a private purchase? if you weren't issued with it then how can you possibly need it? surely we still issue the police with their essential kit don't we?

sorry for the list of fairly incoherent questions but it's just something that's always baffled me

 

[Bigfoot]

It's far too late for this but - Oh dearie me.

I did'nt study law at A Level but I know for a fact that your above post is so wrong that it's scary. We don't have A Levels in Scotland, you see, so I had to make do with a law degree, and then I trained in, and have specialised in criminal law for the last 20 years and run my own criminal defence practice, in Scotland.

Mens rea and actus rea are not quite as you have tried to describe, but the real problem is your last two statements, which are the direct opposite of the law and always have been, in England as well , by the way.
Knife related offences are treated extremely seriously by courts in Scotland, with a great deal of political pressure on the current way the law is enforced but also with a view to creating mandatory imprisonment for those "carrying knives" which is the simplistic view.

To baldscot - firstly, none of the items you describe in your OP are illegal to own although there are certain restrictions on their lawful use in public places, which is what the police at the campsite will have been concerned about. That , as stated by others, is in fact entirely irrelevant to the taking of the items at the police station. As none of the items are prohibited they cannot be taken without reason nor your permission. As you were there on a prearranged appointment to discuss them, you had a reasonable excuse for having them in your possession at that time. Reasonable excuse is the pertinent factor as we are not dealing with offensive weapons - ( this is S.47 of the Criminal Law ( Consolidation ) Scotland Act 1995 and relates to items which are by nature deemed to be offensive weapons or items intended for or adapted for use as offensive weapons ) but the far more common bladed or pointed item ( S.49 of the same Act ).

Again as stated already, we don't really have cautions here , there is something approaching that but it would neve be used in a case involving knives or blades due to the already mentioned politics. Any detention or arrest let alone conviction could affect your career because I believe from your described work that you would be subject to Enhanced Disclosure and the police can put forward pretty much anything against you for that - I've even seen them stating that someone was unsuitable because the had been found NOT guilty of an offence. That being the case , your comments about what it may cost to employ a solicitor are a false economy so .....

You DO need to speak to a solicitor , not a conveyancer or divorce lawyer but a criminal specialist and quickly. The police will be in no hurry at all to reply to you and may simply hope that you go away and don't bother them again. You may be eligible for legal advice and assistance legal aid, even though working. Although it pains me to say so as I wholly disgree with the concept of them - you could also try the Public Defence Solicitors Office as there is one in Glasgow - near the Saltmarket from memory. There is no duty solicitor for you to speak to, as the duty solicitor scheme in Scotland relates only to those in custody and appearing from custody at court. The CAB will be of no use in a situation like this either, it's not set up for criminal law problems.

Great post and great advice.

 

[lavrentyuk]

The only reason that the answer is 'frequently' is because I sometimes forget to pick it up.

They don't issue me with boots, socks or underwear either but they too have there uses ;-)

When, for example, searching a farmers car one often comes across fencing tools and a locknife - they are tools of the job - and the job is being done.

Woodsmen may well have an axe with them. We have a historical re-enactment group locally who can be seen carrying swords and axes, lawful reason in my book when going to and from there events.

 

[baldscot]

Laws in Scotland are different to laws in England and my comments are based on being a Policeman in England (so may be different).

Other than lock knives there aren't illegal knives in public per se. Intended usage, circumstances and carriage all play a role. However Police cannot say what is illegal that is for a judge to say. We can only investigate, form an opinion and decide whether to let it go or arrest/summons and seize then let others decide later. Unfortunately that's why there's no consistency because human nature and experience is mixed with something that isn't definitive.

On the face of it, it sounds you had legitimate reasons for having the knives on both occasions and hopefully the Officers just aren't sure and are just making certain before returning them to you. The seizing at the station seems strange to me as if you were asked to take them to the station then you had legal/legitimate reason for possessing them in public and therefore continued legal reason to carry them home again after (hidden well out of immediate reach of course!). Plus if they left you with the knives at the time thinking you were committing an offence they have technically aided you in the offence by letting you keep them on your person .
Whilst at a later date you can be summonsed for an offence, there would be no right of seizure without a warrant because the incident has passed and you are no longer in public and committing the offence. Unfortunately you handed them over, peoples ignorance is sometimes a useful tool!

Biggest problem is the amount of knives/tools you had so probably that's why things have gone so far.

As I say things might be different North of the border, although on a quick google search it seems the laws are pretty similar. I hope you get them back but more importantly don't let it put you off, just learn what you can from the experience and carry on. Good luck.

i had considered the "aiding and abetting" side of things - but more out of anger / personal satisfaction of retribution. Similair to complaint / lawyer etc - my preference would be to resolve this amicably, through discussion and education (police and myself) on the practical application of the law. I always keep blades stored safely in my bag (in another bag) when not in use and they are never brought out if others are present (apart from those in my company). Seems my ignorance in this case has been taking the police at their word, and it has definetly left me feeling like a tool!

 

[baldscot]

It's far too late for this but - Oh dearie me.

I did'nt study law at A Level but I know for a fact that your above post is so wrong that it's scary. We don't have A Levels in Scotland, you see, so I had to make do with a law degree, and then I trained in, and have specialised in criminal law for the last 20 years and run my own criminal defence practice, in Scotland.

Mens rea and actus rea are not quite as you have tried to describe, but the real problem is your last two statements, which are the direct opposite of the law and always have been, in England as well , by the way.
Knife related offences are treated extremely seriously by courts in Scotland, with a great deal of political pressure on the current way the law is enforced but also with a view to creating mandatory imprisonment for those "carrying knives" which is the simplistic view.

To baldscot - firstly, none of the items you describe in your OP are illegal to own although there are certain restrictions on their lawful use in public places, which is what the police at the campsite will have been concerned about. That , as stated by others, is in fact entirely irrelevant to the taking of the items at the police station. As none of the items are prohibited they cannot be taken without reason nor your permission. As you were there on a prearranged appointment to discuss them, you had a reasonable excuse for having them in your possession at that time. Reasonable excuse is the pertinent factor as we are not dealing with offensive weapons - ( this is S.47 of the Criminal Law ( Consolidation ) Scotland Act 1995 and relates to items which are by nature deemed to be offensive weapons or items intended for or adapted for use as offensive weapons ) but the far more common bladed or pointed item ( S.49 of the same Act ).

Again as stated already, we don't really have cautions here , there is something approaching that but it would neve be used in a case involving knives or blades due to the already mentioned politics. Any detention or arrest let alone conviction could affect your career because I believe from your described work that you would be subject to Enhanced Disclosure and the police can put forward pretty much anything against you for that - I've even seen them stating that someone was unsuitable because the had been found NOT guilty of an offence. That being the case , your comments about what it may cost to employ a solicitor are a false economy so .....

You DO need to speak to a solicitor , not a conveyancer or divorce lawyer but a criminal specialist and quickly. The police will be in no hurry at all to reply to you and may simply hope that you go away and don't bother them again. You may be eligible for legal advice and assistance legal aid, even though working. Although it pains me to say so as I wholly disgree with the concept of them - you could also try the Public Defence Solicitors Office as there is one in Glasgow - near the Saltmarket from memory. There is no duty solicitor for you to speak to, as the duty solicitor scheme in Scotland relates only to those in custody and appearing from custody at court. The CAB will be of no use in a situation like this either, it's not set up for criminal law problems.

My intentions at the moment are to contact police on Wed, if i haven't heard before then. I will ask for appointment and this time, take a witness (retired police officer). Obviously if charges are brought i will be going to a lawyer. Can i ask you to explain a little about the Public Defence Solicitors Office, are they different from a lawyer? Thank you for the advice.

 

[baldscot]

personally i would make a formal complaint against the officer for an act of theft,

"anyone who dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanantly depriving them of it." ,commits theft, 1968 theft act.

this police officer has commited theft in that he 'dishonestly appropriated' in that he did not keep to the law in confiscation of your property,did he give you a reciept?

the police think they are the law,they are not,they work for us and they to must obey your laws. you had a perfectly good reason to have those knives on you. if you dont complain and get your property back you enbolden and encourage this sort of disgusting behaviour by our employees,they hope that fear will keep you from standing up to them when you are in the right,remember the law applies to them as well as you.(thankfully not me!)

I do believe the initial officer did used fear based tactics (i was even threatened with arrest for "theft of wood"). It worked!! i simply didn't fancy spending the rest of the weekend in a cell, hence why i went to the police station with the intention of discussing appropriate use. It was suggested that i arrange to contact the nearest police station next time i intend to use the tools in whatever area, to advise of my intentions. Seemed sensible to me, but not really relevant at the moment as i now have no tools to use.

 

[baldscot]

Well speaking as another Policeman, in Wales rather than England though we have the same legal basis, unlike Scotland - certain knives are defined as offensive weapons in themselves, regardless of useage. Lock knives though aren't one of them. Many people carry lock knives including, for example, opinels, so long as they have lawful excuse. They must be carried for an immediate purpose so carrying one about 'in case I decide to go camping' won't do.

If we are going on a picnic I take an opinel - lawful reason - but could not just carry one in my car. When camping, with a fire, I have axes in the car/on the bike. Just driving about - no way.

At work I frequently carry a multi tool with locking knife - it has been useful to force entry and cut down hanging bodies for example, but would not carry it off duty. Off duty I have a selection of EDC pen knives (NATO/Army type is my favourite).

What is written about it being a matter for the judge/magistrates is quite correct, though we can offer cautions in certain circumstances.

I have no knowledge of the law in Scotland.

Thanks for your input. I am aware of the knife problems in Scotland and do not carry any bladed tools "just in case", whether stored in car or on my person. I did try to explain the lock knife was for food prep - it was in a sheath next to food, but made no difference. On a different note - should hanging bodies be cut down prior to photo's etc being taken? Not being argumentative but i think it highlights that one persons idea of "reasonable excuse" is different from another. Fine for members of the public, but i would expect a degree of professionalism and consistency from the police.

 

[baldscot]

Let's say you got pulled over by a traffic cop and he remarked that the tread on your tyre was on the limit and to 'be on your way' but he doesn't want to see you again.
Would you then go to the police station a week later with the same tyre and ask if was/wasn't ok to continue driving on it?

Strange analogy, short answer is No (i would cange the tyre!) I went to the police station hoping to discuss in a reasonable way. I phoned prior to going there and all indications were that this is what would happen.

 

[baldscot]

You are of course right, I was just trying to keep things relevant as the other knives aren't likely to be carried by 'bushcrafters' and the like.
Lock knives need to have a legal reason to be carried no matter what the length in contrast to normal knives. In my experience (in London) you're more likely than not gonna get into trouble for a lock knife if your not using it for direct work purposes. The courts really don't like lock knives.

Agreed - living in glasgow i would fully expect to be arrested for carrying a lock knife in the city on a day to day basis. I would say the same about walking down the street with a club hammer - however the officer said he didn't have a problem with me using this (to be used with a splitting wedge) and i did not have to put this in car. It is this type of inconsistency which lead me to call the police station for clarity on what is deemed "reasonable". I really didn't think i could have this discussion with the initial officer due to his manner.

 

[Bigfoot]

Was the Police station you attended in Callander or was it in Glasgow somewhere? If the latter, meeting up with 2 urban cops wouldn't have helped your case, as stated previously they would just err on the side of caution (ie covering their backsides). Shame you couldn't have met up with your original Police contact although like others in this thread I question your need to be drawn back to a Police station with your sharps (but understand your good intentions). I think I would have left well alone but hindsight is always 20/20 as they say. One to mark down to experience, I hope you find a solution that (a) gets your kit back and (b) doesn't get you a permanent record somewhere. Some proper legal advice is definitely advisable (so you know exactly what your rights are) it doesn't mean you have to go in with guns blazing, the "cool" approach should work for you as long as you demonstrate your "reasonable excuse", which I think you can do, in spades.

 

[Doc]

I'm not sure if someone called the police or if it was a routine Operation Ironworks patrol, but it could well have been that you unintentionally alarmed someone:

-the national park has suffered a lot of antisocial behaviour recently
-five young(ish) men and no women
-alcohol present
-a military looking knife with a blacked out blade over ten inches long
-an axe on display
-noise from banging a splitting wedge and perhaps the usual campfire banter could be heard

Notwithstanding the fact you had reasonable cause to have such things when camping, a police officer might consider that asking you to put them out of sight in the car would avoid anyone else being alarmed. Not unreasonable in my view. I'd have left it at that.

You keep referring to your tools as 'blades' and this is probably not the sort of language which would go down well with the police.

We shouldn't be frightened to take and use knives on a camping trip, but I think a little more discretion could have saved you a lot of trouble.

 

[baldscot]

Was the Police station you attended in Callander or was it in Glasgow somewhere? If the latter, meeting up with 2 urban cops wouldn't have helped your case, as stated previously they would just err on the side of caution (ie covering their backsides). Shame you couldn't have met up with your original Police contact although like others in this thread I question your need to be drawn back to a Police station with your sharps (but understand your good intentions). I think I would have left well alone but hindsight is always 20/20 as they say. One to mark down to experience, I hope you find a solution that (a) gets your kit back and (b) doesn't get you a permanent record somewhere. Some proper legal advice is definitely advisable (so you know exactly what your rights are) it doesn't mean you have to go in with guns blazing, the "cool" approach should work for you as long as you demonstrate your "reasonable excuse", which I think you can do, in spades.

It was Central HQ in Stirling. As you say, hindsight is great. If i could go back in time, i would have left it but was concerned that future trips would have landed me in bother, based on what the cop said at camp location. Seems the safest way is to keep any sharps hidden from authorities - but knowing my luck i'll then get done for having a concealed weapon lol!

 

[baldscot]

I'm not sure if someone called the police or if it was a routine Operation Ironworks patrol, but it could well have been that you unintentionally alarmed someone:

-the national park has suffered a lot of antisocial behaviour recently
-five young(ish) men and no women
-alcohol present
-a military looking knife with a blacked out blade over ten inches long
-an axe on display
-noise from banging a splitting wedge and perhaps the usual campfire banter could be heard

Notwithstanding the fact you had reasonable cause to have such things when camping, a police officer might consider that asking you to put them out of sight in the car would avoid anyone else being alarmed. Not unreasonable in my view. I'd have left it at that.

You keep referring to your tools as 'blades' and this is probably not the sort of language which would go down well with the police.

We shouldn't be frightened to take and use knives on a camping trip, but I think a little more discretion could have saved you a lot of trouble.

You're right, we shouldn't be frightened - but when a police officer tells me he'll arrest me if he finds me with them again, it's difficult not to take him at his word - and i do have a fear of being arrested.
They did not have a problem with the splitting wedge tool or the hammer tool, it was the bladed tools they took issue with, hence my use of the term "blades". I did refer to them as tools (when i was able to get a word in) when questioned at our camp.
I know the area well and if i'm out with family, dogs etc in any of the more populated areas (Balmaha, Rowerdennan, Luss etc) i don't take these tools with me - we were at Loch Arklett and were fairly isolated, with decent view of anyone approaching. The reason i was using the splitting wedge was because a young couple and child were at lochside so i had sheathed my knife and lay it out of view (from a distance) next to where i was working. There were others camping several hundred metres away, but as they were sawing down live trees, i doubtthey would have taken offence at e chopping some dead wood - especially as i had taken logs with me. Without going word for word, i can assure you that i did not consider the officer to be reasonable - in fact he was very rude. I could understand if he had simply asked me to put the knives / saw / axe away for a specific reason i.e. to avoid others being alarmed, but he reorted to threats of arrest before giving me any chance to respond or explain.

 

[ReamviThantos]

get a solicitor IMMEDIATELY, only a solicitor will ensure the police act lawfully, without one they may not.

i second this advice, anyone with the mistaken opinion -from my personal experience- that all police officers are kind upstanding citizens are i'm afraid rather naive. I had an experience not so long ago having called out the police, instead of dealing with delinquent youths in the manner they deserved, attempting to smash my windows, with an "officer" whose attitude to the incident simply stunned me. i won't bore anyone with the details of his behaviour but would now think very hard about ever dealing with them in a positive way again, sadly. Funny how we are not allowed to take the law into our own hands when dealing with bad un's but have to rely or these types who seem to view themselves exactly as a previous posted noted, a criminal firm themselves. This coming from an ex police officer myself- got bored with the b******t, my own Batman type zeal being tempered by the loss of my innocence as to who the bad guys sometimes (not all) are.

 

[baldscot]

Good luck with THAT one - you prove an element of dishonesty as laid out in R v GHOSH and I'll eat my hat. And yours, if you like.

The OP has very little to worry about - all that remains is for him to return to the Police Station and ask for his property back. He has not committed any offences, assuming that the Criminal Law Act is not wildly differ in Scotland. The Police have retained his property with the best of intentions but perhaps without legal legitimacy. Ask for your kit back, if it isn't forthcoming ask to speak to the Duty Sergeant with a view to making a complaint. You probably won't actually need to make a formal complaint - the mere mention of one will oil the wheels and you'll 99% be reunited with your clobber. If not, write a letter to the Force Solicitor and explain that your equipment has been seized and retained unlawfully, and that until it is returned, you will be charging rent for it's hire by the Police Force of, say, £20 per day.

Oh, and next time, don't take a machete camping. No need, really.

The general consesus here seems to be i'll get the gear back. That would be great but i would also like to achieve my inital aim here i.e. to receive clarification on future use to avoid similair experiences.
Not nit-picking but i didn't have a machete. Is there a NEED to have any tools when camping? Rhetorical question, i'm not being responsible for that debate lol. I had the condor as i had recentley purchased it and this is the first time it has seen the light of day. I did consider it's size and appearance before taking it and concluded that it would be in a setting where it would be deemed as being used for the purpose it is intended. I still believe this to be true.

 

[Beefy0978]

You're right, we shouldn't be frightened - but when a police officer tells me he'll arrest me if he finds me with them again, it's difficult not to take him at his word - and i do have a fear of being arrested.
They did not have a problem with the splitting wedge tool or the hammer tool, it was the bladed tools they took issue with, hence my use of the term "blades". I did refer to them as tools (when i was able to get a word in) when questioned at our camp.
I know the area well and if i'm out with family, dogs etc in any of the more populated areas (Balmaha, Rowerdennan, Luss etc) i don't take these tools with me - we were at Loch Arklett and were fairly isolated, with decent view of anyone approaching. The reason i was using the splitting wedge was because a young couple and child were at lochside so i had sheathed my knife and lay it out of view (from a distance) next to where i was working. There were others camping several hundred metres away, but as they were sawing down live trees, i doubt they would have taken offence at e chopping some dead wood - especially as i had taken logs with me. Without going word for word, i can assure you that i did not consider the officer to be reasonable - in fact he was very rude. I could understand if he had simply asked me to put the knives / saw / axe away for a specific reason i.e. to avoid others being alarmed, but he reorted to threats of arrest before giving me any chance to respond or explain.

I think you need to understand the power balance. You had the weapons. Sorry tools. They threatened to arrest you. And yes they could have. You need to offer your lawful reason. One hopes the officer on the ground is reasonable and will understand. S/He doesn't have to. In fact the interview at the police station is probably the first hurdle where you get a say. And I might add, a solicitor free of charge to ensure you get your say. Like it or not they can threaten to arrest you. Moreover they can arrest you so it's not so much a threat as a way of ensuring your cooperation. The power balance. If their attitude was awful then you have grounds to complain through the ipcc.
As I said before, as have others. You were asked / told / threatened to put the tools in the car. Which you did do. Reluctantly or not. That should have been the end of it. You actually came out on top and the cops didn't lose either. Win win.
Until the next time when the same process may have played out. And in the end as with many of these borderline legal activities you learn to go elsewhere, where there aren't other campers within a few hundred yards. I have had similar experiences greenlaning and in the end gave up. Doesn't matter that I didn't break the law. Others were of the opinion that I was and I got tired of explaining myself.
You most probably need a solicitor to sort this one out if you feel so aggrieved. Alternatively an official complaint to at least the station inspector will get you a better explanation of their viewpoint. If not keep pestering them until they get fed up with you and arrange that interview I keep going on about.....

 

[baldscot]

i second this advice, anyone with the mistaken opinion -from my personal experience- that all police officers are kind upstanding citizens are i'm afraid rather naive. I had an experience not so long ago having called out the police, instead of dealing with delinquent youths in the manner they deserved, attempting to smash my windows, with an "officer" whose attitude to the incident simply stunned me. i won't bore anyone with the details of his behaviour but would now think very hard about ever dealing with them in a positive way again, sadly. Funny how we are not allowed to take the law into our own hands when dealing with bad un's but have to rely or these types who seem to view themselves exactly as a previous posted noted, a criminal firm themselves. This coming from an ex police officer myself- got bored with the b******t, my own Batman type zeal being tempered by the loss of my innocence as to who the bad guys sometimes (not all) are.

I have only have limited dealing with the police in my personal life, but many through the course of my work. I always endeavour to be helpful in terms of co-operating and advise anyone i work with to do the same. This experience has definetly changed my outlook and i will now be a lot more reserved and only co-operate where i am required to by law. I will also be advising others to do same.