Best Steel
- Thread starter bushtank
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thomasturnbull said:
From what little I remember of metalurgy, thats what carbon steels are about. It doesn't take much to clean the blade sufficiently to fend off the onset of rust but a good patina will often enhance the look and "history" of a knife. 01 sure makes a characterful blade (once it has been used for a while) compared with soul-less stainless steel
and its easier to heat treat at home without specialised equipment.ATB
Ogri the trog
My 01 knife discolours and show tiny spots of what I pressume is rust within 24 hours of being out in the field using it.
I clean the blade and tang where exposed with the paste from a 6000 grit water stone and nagura stone.
For preservation I use Ren. Wax - great stuff.
Phil.
I clean the blade and tang where exposed with the paste from a 6000 grit water stone and nagura stone.
For preservation I use Ren. Wax - great stuff.
Phil.
If you want a carbon steel that is easier to look after then try D2 it's fairly easy to get hold of and because of it's high chromium content doesn't rust anywhere near as quickly as O1.
thomasturnbull said:
really?
It's called character! propor tools develop it from years of work and love. carbon all the way i say
Or...just buy a stainless blade and be done with it?
On the other hand, stainless is anything but easy to work with and I suppose for a budding knifemaker, trying to forge and temper it would be a difficult process.
Am I correct in thinking this or am I way off the mark?
Adam
On the other hand, stainless is anything but easy to work with and I suppose for a budding knifemaker, trying to forge and temper it would be a difficult process.
Am I correct in thinking this or am I way off the mark?
Adam
I have never understood the panic about non stainless steels. The rust thing is so overblown, its a joke.
If you really have to have this steel and cant stand the thought of rust, patina or stains then hand rub it to #2000 and it will readily resist all the mentioned effects. I have a crappy old Ontario Spec Plus (1095) that I hand rubbed to #2000 after taking off the nasty black stuff on the blade. Its been in a sheath in a shoe box in a humid country for well over a year and there isnt a single mark on it.
If you really have to have this steel and cant stand the thought of rust, patina or stains then hand rub it to #2000 and it will readily resist all the mentioned effects. I have a crappy old Ontario Spec Plus (1095) that I hand rubbed to #2000 after taking off the nasty black stuff on the blade. Its been in a sheath in a shoe box in a humid country for well over a year and there isnt a single mark on it.
That's true, if you shine it enough any oxidization (is that even a word?) that occurs can just be wiped off with a cloth and you're good to go. Too bad that they can't make Opinels like that. Too bad I still won't buy another one!
Adam
Adam
All steels can and do rust, tarnish, and discolor over time and with use. Stainless steel just takes longer to do that, but it will. Same thing for the D series steels. Adding chromium and nickel to steel just slows that rusting and discoloring down. The only way to keep them "mirror bright" is to clean and oil them after use, and often. And don't store them in leather - the tanning chemicals react with the steel.
Stainless steel is also a lot harder to forge and work than the carbon steels, and a lot harder to re-sharpen once it gets dull. In the opinion of most professional knife makers, stainless makes for a lesser quality knife blade than the carbon steels. They make knifes using stainless simply because the market demands it.
There is no "best steel" for knife making. Each steel alloy has it's good points and bad points. Some are easier to sharpen, some hold an edge longer. Some are more shock resistant, some bend more than break/chip. Each use of a knife has a type of steel that would be better for it. But most general purpose knives tend to be forged from steels like 1095 or O1.
Having to clean/oil a carbon steel knife more often than a stainless steel knife is a small price to pay for a better overall using knife.
I have made several knives from 1095 carbon steel, and I several knives I always use made from 1095 and O1. I have a couple stainless steel knives I picked up over the years. They stay buried somewhere in the junk drawer. I'll take a carbon steel knife anytime. And I'm not worried about discoloration. Mirror finishes are for a display case - not a working knife.
Just my humble thoughts to share. Take them as such.
Mike Ameling
Stainless steel is also a lot harder to forge and work than the carbon steels, and a lot harder to re-sharpen once it gets dull. In the opinion of most professional knife makers, stainless makes for a lesser quality knife blade than the carbon steels. They make knifes using stainless simply because the market demands it.
There is no "best steel" for knife making. Each steel alloy has it's good points and bad points. Some are easier to sharpen, some hold an edge longer. Some are more shock resistant, some bend more than break/chip. Each use of a knife has a type of steel that would be better for it. But most general purpose knives tend to be forged from steels like 1095 or O1.
Having to clean/oil a carbon steel knife more often than a stainless steel knife is a small price to pay for a better overall using knife.
I have made several knives from 1095 carbon steel, and I several knives I always use made from 1095 and O1. I have a couple stainless steel knives I picked up over the years. They stay buried somewhere in the junk drawer. I'll take a carbon steel knife anytime. And I'm not worried about discoloration. Mirror finishes are for a display case - not a working knife.
Just my humble thoughts to share. Take them as such.
Mike Ameling
I find that trying to keep a carbon blade shiny is pretty hard work. Kind of pointless on a working knife. The real issue is trying to prevent excessive pitting, but you can do that by applying a mustard of vinegar type finish to the blade prior to fitting the handle. This process puts an oxide layer on the steel that makes it less likely to pit, and even if it does discolour, it no longer shows
Hi,
Most of the oil hardening steels of which O1 is an example are fairly simple high carbon steels which will discolour either through oxidisation (rusting) or taking on a patina (staining).
Steels such as A2 and D2 are more stain resistant due to the higher chromium content but cannot be called stainless as the chromium content is not high enough. These steels are harder to work with.
Some stainless steels such as 440C, ATS34, 154CM and the current wonder steel CPM-S30V when heat treated correctly will take and hold an edge equal to or surpassing many of the better high carbon tool steels however the heat treatment process must be precise requiring expensive digitally controlled equipment. This is why blades from these materials are so expensive.
For forging I would say that O1 or 1095 are fine but for the stock removal method of blade making then any of the better tool or stainless steels are probably better.
Tack
Most of the oil hardening steels of which O1 is an example are fairly simple high carbon steels which will discolour either through oxidisation (rusting) or taking on a patina (staining).
Steels such as A2 and D2 are more stain resistant due to the higher chromium content but cannot be called stainless as the chromium content is not high enough. These steels are harder to work with.
Some stainless steels such as 440C, ATS34, 154CM and the current wonder steel CPM-S30V when heat treated correctly will take and hold an edge equal to or surpassing many of the better high carbon tool steels however the heat treatment process must be precise requiring expensive digitally controlled equipment. This is why blades from these materials are so expensive.
For forging I would say that O1 or 1095 are fine but for the stock removal method of blade making then any of the better tool or stainless steels are probably better.
Tack
What about Cpm 9V, cpm 3v and cpm 10V?
Cpm 10v for example should have nearly as much toughness but about three times the wear resistance of cpms30v.
Cpm s90V (a stainless) has roughly the same characteristics as Cpm9v (not a stainless)
So I dont think stainless has anything to do with it. due to Chromium not being the only alloy that will increase edge holding ability.
I am pretty friendly with an up and coming maker in the US. (David Mosier of DMKnives) he uses S30V 90% of the time and his heat treat is spot on at 59RC. I asked him about S90V a while back and the answer I got was that its such a pain in the rump to grind that you go through twice as many belts as you do with S30V. He made some large choppers for me/my clients is 3V which should perform superbly. I can't remember exactly its performace but its something like twice the wear resistance of D2 and four (4) times the toughness of A2, pretty impressive. On its shipment from the US to Japan, there were a couple of black dots which are the precursor to pitting on the blades. A quick polish with Metal-Glo brought them off, but be warned, 3V is a high maintenance steel.
I think the ultimate steel for a Bushcrafter would be 3V, the heat treat though is very long and thus costly (over 24 hours) but the cost of the material is about the same as S30V as long as you can find it in a size that you want.
I think the ultimate steel for a Bushcrafter would be 3V, the heat treat though is very long and thus costly (over 24 hours) but the cost of the material is about the same as S30V as long as you can find it in a size that you want.
I am having a blade made in 3v so i will find out soon, at 59 hrc it should have nearly twice the wear resistance of D2 and be just over twice as tough as 01 and i think A2 is roughly the same as 01?
I think you are right about it being the ultimate bushknife steel, exept maybe 9v if you can get the hardness right, but i suppose too much wear resistance is a bad thing, 3v is a nice balance. The steel cost me a lot though!
I think you are right about it being the ultimate bushknife steel, exept maybe 9v if you can get the hardness right, but i suppose too much wear resistance is a bad thing, 3v is a nice balance. The steel cost me a lot though!
thomasturnbull said:
The CPM steels are good, but perhaps not the kind of thing that a beginner is going to use, hey?
It would be more use to suggest stuff that can be sourced more readily and heat treated more simply by the new maker themselves, or one of the friendly hobbyist makers in the UK.
I am sure that there are some threads on British Blades about the uses of the EN carbon steels.
http://www.dick.biz/cgi-bin/dick.st...73f50f336090678/ChangeLanguage/EN?alibidata=1
There are some interesting steels in the Knives section, near the bottome, but O-1 is a good starting place for learning.
