Ban on sale of coal and wet wood.

[Toddy]

Going back to the 1960's,during the winter months my grand dad would get up early and keep the fire in,i remember him raking the coals just enough to keep them going,and then later on he would add more coal and draw it by using the News of the World.Seems me grand dad was into a bit of bushcrafting and he didn't even know it.

We had a gas poker. It literally plugged into the gas mains with a bayonet fitting at the side of the fireplace. Lit with a match and pushed into the coals to start the fire.
Before we had that we rolled up newspapers into paper stick kindling, and yes, used a sheet of newspaper to draw the fire

 

[TLM]

Not in life but have seen some nice videos. Permanent dwellings need to be swept once a year, free time buildings every third year. Fires are quite rare nowadays.

I saw what came out of the central heating chimney, ash very little soot.

I do have an air~to~air single stage heat pump. It starts to work from -20C two stage ones work from -30C, I have often wondered why they are not used more in central Europe.

 

[Toddy]

I think there's an enormous difference between a continental Winter and an Atlantic Island kind

Right now where I live we have a 30cms/ 1foot of snow. However, the temperature has hovered just above and just below freezing. -2.6˚C when I got up this morning. This afternoon it's been +2.1˚C.

That's pretty much usual for us at this time of year. The ground is still sodden wet underneath the snow.
I know that in other places abroad that the frost levels that they must build to, and bury water and sewerage lines below, is often a metre or more deep.
Totally unnecessary here.

To be honest we use the dehumidifiers in late Spring and Autumn more than we use the central heating. It's a win/win for us because it removes moisture but it gives off heat as it does so.

67% humidity is the level where mould will start to grow. Guess why we know ? The reading in my sitting room, where my laptop is just now, is 45%. It's the warmest room in the house (20.5˚C) the outside reading is 95% humidity....and the skies are clear for the present, we've had a lovely bright sunny afternoon.
Yet Robson Valley who lives in Canada says that his house is so dry in Winter that he happily boils stuff to add moisture to the air.

Different climates just need different approaches.

 

[Paul_B]

Properly prepared wood, proper burn, modern burner? Hmmm! Most of the time we've had fires the wood gets stored in the garage, shed or little cottage. Neither are well ventilated or particularly dry. Unfortunately I've never seen anyone with a burner or fire that had a good place to be store enough be wood too ensure its dry enough for a proper burn. Mostly rural villages so not suburban locations where a woodburner is pure fashion. I think a bushcraft site isn't a representative place for typical wood burning in the home.

At work one of the directors takes any old wood, pallets, etc for his sister's woodburner. Or was it range with back boiler? She's a farmer by profession but cannot source wood from their land because there's no woods on it. Even people you'd think would generate and have dry storage don't do so. What chance the person buying from the side of the road sign sort of a place to burn straight away?

Here there's very knowledgeable people who probably have good storage, know how to store wood and how long. Possibly who even test their wood before burning. I believe someone operates a 3 year drying cycle IIRC but I can't remember who or where I read it. I bet most buy and start to use without making sure of moisture levels. There is a reason behind the ban and it's based on wood burning being a major source of harmful particulates I believe.

Just because a minority can manage that n problem with their burner doesn't mean the problem doesn't need addressing somehow. Whether this is the right way or not is the real question not whether woodburners are a problem?

 

[henchy3rd]

Are you referring to ground source heat pump exchangers?

I guess a bit off both really.
I know geo heat is from the earths core & ground heat pumps are from the suns energy store in the ground.
I’m no expert so I was just saying?

 

[Stew]

When we build any new building or renovate,why not use geothermal/ground heat.

Cost.

It's just not cost appealing!

 

[Broch]

Properly prepared wood, proper burn, modern burner? Hmmm! Most of the time we've had fires the wood gets stored in the garage, shed or little cottage. Neither are well ventilated or particularly dry. Unfortunately I've never seen anyone with a burner or fire that had a good place to be store enough be wood too ensure its dry enough for a proper burn. Mostly rural villages so not suburban locations where a woodburner is pure fashion. I think a bushcraft site isn't a representative place for typical wood burning in the home.

At work one of the directors takes any old wood, pallets, etc for his sister's woodburner. Or was it range with back boiler? She's a farmer by profession but cannot source wood from their land because there's no woods on it. Even people you'd think would generate and have dry storage don't do so. What chance the person buying from the side of the road sign sort of a place to burn straight away?

Here there's very knowledgeable people who probably have good storage, know how to store wood and how long. Possibly who even test their wood before burning. I believe someone operates a 3 year drying cycle IIRC but I can't remember who or where I read it. I bet most buy and start to use without making sure of moisture levels. There is a reason behind the ban and it's based on wood burning being a major source of harmful particulates I believe.

Just because a minority can manage that n problem with their burner doesn't mean the problem doesn't need addressing somehow. Whether this is the right way or not is the real question not whether woodburners are a problem?

I agree, I agree with bringing in legislation. But I certainly do not accept that the majority of wood burner users burn old pallets (though to be honest wood pallets aren't treated and will almost certainly be very dry) or burn creosote treated timber. I also find it hard to believe that someone that has just spent over a thousand pounds on a new clean-air burner will start putting wet wood through it.

Wood only has to be below 20% moisture content to burn well - most sheds or garages will hold wood at that level as long as there's not water getting in. Wood stored out of the rain will drop to below 20% moisture eventually as long as air circulates around it, so, if it's delivered at 20% and stored under cover, it will be fine. If a householder doesn't have room to store a large quantity then they will require frequent deliveries of seasoned wood and all is fine. Let's not throw out a (relatively) carbon neutral fuel source because of personal opinion!

The fire's lit, burning nicely, it's cosy, the spaniel is curled up in front of it, and I'm sipping a drink - pure bliss

 

[Toddy]

@Stew

They can be noisy too in suburbia where next door is just a few feet away.

 

[Toddy]

I agree, I agree with bringing in legislation. But I certainly do not accept that the majority of wood burner users burn old pallets (though to be honest wood pallets aren't treated and will almost certainly be very dry) or burn creosote treated timber. I also find it hard to believe that someone that has just spent over a thousand pounds on a new clean-air burner will start putting wet wood through it.

Wood only has to be below 20% moisture content to burn well - most sheds or garages will hold wood at that level as long as there's not water getting in. Wood stored out of the rain will drop to below 20% moisture eventually as long as air circulates around it, so, if it's delivered at 20% and stored under cover, it will be fine. If a householder doesn't have room to store a large quantity then they will require frequent deliveries of seasoned wood and all is fine. Let's not throw out a (relatively) carbon neutral fuel source because of personal opinion!

The fire's lit, burning nicely, it's cosy, the spaniel is curled up in front of it, and I'm sipping a drink - pure bliss

It's not the carbon neutral bit that's the issue though; it's the particulate matter that causes real air pollution, especially in suburban areas.

 

[Broch]

They can be noisy too in suburbia where next door is just a few feet away.

I assume you don't mean wood burners

 

[Broch]

It's not the carbon neutral bit that's the issue though; it's the particulate matter that causes real air pollution, especially in suburban areas.

Ah, but that's the whole point of the legislation - new stoves + dry wood = virtually zero particulate matter.

 

[henchy3rd]

Properly prepared wood, proper burn, modern burner? Hmmm! Most of the time we've had fires the wood gets stored in the garage, shed or little cottage. Neither are well ventilated or particularly dry. Unfortunately I've never seen anyone with a burner or fire that had a good place to be store enough be wood too ensure its dry enough for a proper burn. Mostly rural villages so not suburban locations where a woodburner is pure fashion. I think a bushcraft site isn't a representative place for typical wood burning in the home.

At work one of the directors takes any old wood, pallets, etc for his sister's woodburner. Or was it range with back boiler? She's a farmer by profession but cannot source wood from their land because there's no woods on it. Even people you'd think would generate and have dry storage don't do so. What chance the person buying from the side of the road sign sort of a place to burn straight away?

Here there's very knowledgeable people who probably have good storage, know how to store wood and how long. Possibly who even test their wood before burning. I believe someone operates a 3 year drying cycle IIRC but I can't remember who or where I read it. I bet most buy and start to use without making sure of moisture levels. There is a reason behind the ban and it's based on wood burning being a major source of harmful particulates I believe.

Just because a minority can manage that n problem with their burner doesn't mean the problem doesn't need addressing somehow. Whether this is the right way or not is the real question not whether woodburners are a problem?

we used to do a three year cycle when I lived in a commune for sustainable living..the wood store was huge & all sourced from our woods. There was no gas or fuel powered machinery,just man power & a lot off will.

Properly prepared wood, proper burn, modern burner? Hmmm! Most of the time we've had fires the wood gets stored in the garage, shed or little cottage. Neither are well ventilated or particularly dry. Unfortunately I've never seen anyone with a burner or fire that had a good place to be store enough be wood too ensure its dry enough for a proper burn. Mostly rural villages so not suburban locations where a woodburner is pure fashion. I think a bushcraft site isn't a representative place for typical wood burning in the home.

At work one of the directors takes any old wood, pallets, etc for his sister's woodburner. Or was it range with back boiler? She's a farmer by profession but cannot source wood from their land because there's no woods on it. Even people you'd think would generate and have dry storage don't do so. What chance the person buying from the side of the road sign sort of a place to burn straight away?

Here there's very knowledgeable people who probably have good storage, know how to store wood and how long. Possibly who even test their wood before burning. I believe someone operates a 3 year drying cycle IIRC but I can't remember who or where I read it. I bet most buy and start to use without making sure of moisture levels. There is a reason behind the ban and it's based on wood burning being a major source of harmful particulates I believe.

Just because a minority can manage that n problem with their burner doesn't mean the problem doesn't need addressing somehow. Whether this is the right way or not is the real question not whether woodburners are a problem?unfortunately most can’t do this for obvious reasons.

this is where I learnt from an 8 year old that trees trap & store carbon & other pollutants,only to release when chopped down & released as co2.
we forever learn.

 

[Toddy]

It's certainly the hope, but even so, if you can smell the woodstove burning from outside someone's home, then it's giving off pollution.

Truthfully, I love a good fire, and we have a very suitable gable wall in the sitting room and I have often considered fitting a stove, but my reality is that the stench, and it is a stench, from the few neighbours who have fitted them is utterly discouraging.
We've already had problems severe enough to ask Environmental Health to step in.
In suburbia I think the stoves are on a sticky wicket.

M

 

[slowworm]

There is a reason behind the ban and it's based on wood burning being a major source of harmful particulates I believe.

Just because a minority can manage that n problem with their burner doesn't mean the problem doesn't need addressing somehow. Whether this is the right way or not is the real question not whether woodburners are a problem?

Considering they're not stopping people burning wet wood and other rubbish or even having bonfires I'm too sceptical to believe it's down to cutting particulates. When you also see log supplies need to pay to join a scheme it appears to be more about money making and being seen to do something rather than actually doing the right thing.

Anyway, smokeless zones already exist but how often do you hear of people being prosecuted?

 

[Toddy]

I assume you don't mean wood burners

No, I'm sorry, cross posted. I've edited in (at)Stew to my post.

 

[Toddy]

Considering they're not stopping people burning wet wood and other rubbish or even having bonfires I'm too sceptical to believe it's down to cutting particulates. When you also see log supplies need to pay to join a scheme it appears to be more about money making and being seen to do something rather than actually doing the right thing.

Anyway, smokeless zones already exist but how often do you hear of people being prosecuted?

Not so much nowadays, but in the 1960's friends in Glasgow were really worried about burning anything but the approved anthracite coal. There were inspectors who roamed around the city checking and they did prosecute folks.
No idea how they would go about dealing with it nowadays though.

 

[Stew]

@Stew

They can be noisy too in suburbia where next door is just a few feet away.

I imagine that can be overcome fairly easily. How much different are they to air source and air conditioning units?

 

[Broch]

Oil boilers are being put outside now too and they're not quiet.

 

[henchy3rd]

It's not the carbon neutral bit that's the issue though; it's the particulate matter that causes real air pollution, especially in suburban areas.

Maybe they should stop sending so many rockets into space..as their are no regulations. The chemical Alumina from the wake can alter the stratospher,in turn depleting the O zone further at an alarming rate.
There are also 1,000 more rockets expected annually..
also the average rocket produces more carbon dioxide in a few minutes than the average car in two decades.
I can’t do the sums, so I’ll leave that up to you lot?

Some traffic hot spots have seen a 14 to 38% decrease in nitrogen oxide(NO2)however this leads to a reactive atmosphere which will increase the ultrafine particulate matter..which is even worse for our health.
I’m no expert, but even I can put two & two together!
I don’t think there’s any hope of sorting our need for energy out.. not until our final hour.
This COVID is an awful virus & I don’t wish it on no good person..but could this be nature’s way.
just a thought?

It's not the carbon neutral bit that's the issue though; it's the particulate matter that causes real air pollution, especially in suburban areas.

 

[henchy3rd]

Split and stacked, stored in an airy place, is the way wood has been seasoned for hundreds of years. There is a problem at the moment with the local estates felling all their Ash woodland because of the Ash Dieback. This is a thoroughly responsible reaction, but it does mean we’re buying wood that hasn’t been seasoned properly, partly because Ash burns green if necessary, and partly down to storage problems for the vast amount of timber produced all at once. It’s also a wood that rots very quickly if left out in stacks, so the only way to deal with the sheer quantity is to split and sell. What I’m buying isn’t green, but it’s heavy and cool to the touch.

A few years ago I tried some briquette type coal bought from the local garage and B&Q, the stuff that sits on pallets outside. Now that’s the stuff that should be banned. Not only was it soaking wet, but most of the ‘ash’ from the fire seemed to be sandy grit, my ash bucket weighed a ton carrying it out to empty and it sooted the burner window so badly I had to take the door off and drill brush the crud off outside.

I’m not telling you how to suck egg.. but a lot of people don’t know which vent to use.. I learnt the hard way?
To start the fire open all vents, sometimes helps to keep the door slightly ajar, some have a bottom ash tray door you can open to suck in air.
when up to heat close the door.If burning coal open the bottom vent & close the top.
if burning wood open the top vent & close the bottom as it stops the glass from sooting up..sometimes due to atmospherics we might have to slightly open the other vents until burning correctly.
Heres another ingesting thing..take a close look at the stove thermostat, you’ll notice there’s writing on the edge..creosote(left). best operation( top) & to hot ( right).