Ban on sale of coal and wet wood.

[TLM]

I think there's an enormous difference between a continental Winter and an Atlantic Island kind

True but a heat pump does not know that, it only looks at the temps and temp differential.

Different climates just need different approaches.

Air to air heat pumps are at their northern limit in Fennoscandia, Misty Isles and central Europe would be at just about the optimum. Modern units heat, cool, dehumidify and circulate, take your pick of the function. Heating is at best done with an efficiency of 500% in comparison to direct el heating.

 

[Toddy]

And yet they are not popular.
They do need an electricity supply to run, and here we cannot rely on solar for that.
They are noisy, like a constant large air conditioning unit running.
They are very expensive to install and they do require a really well insulated home to work well.
They also don't run as hot as our usual boilers and they require much larger radiators, or the installation of underfloor heating .....retroactive fitting is a right royal pain, been there, done that, not recommended, tbh.
They really lose efficiency below 0˚C.....and here our climate hovers just above and just below that pretty much for four or five months just when we need the heat most.

 

[TLM]

They are noisy, like a constant large air conditioning unit running.

Somewhat true on the outside units not really inside.

They are very expensive to install

Not here.

they do require a really well insulated home to work well.

Any heating method requires good insulation to work well.

They also don't run as hot as our usual boilers

Air to water ones do, one does not want that hot air out of a to a.

retroactive fitting is a right royal pain

It did take one hour at our cottage, one man working leisurely.

They really lose efficiency below 0˚C

Not really they don't, at zero outside mine still works at 300%. I don't think that as bad. My single stage one drops to equal with direct el at -20C, that has been empirically confirmed for the last 5 years.

 

[Toddy]

What you say totally contradicts the advice given to us by the people who install them.

For instance.....

Comprehensive Guide to Air Source Heat Pumps in 2024

Air source heat pumps provide heating and cooling for your home. Read our guide on how they work, their pros & cons, prices and more.

www.greenmatch.co.uk

The retrofitted underfloor central heating was a nightmare. Floorboards up, hardcore into the foundations, concrete laid with the wiring grid, that dried in and then tiles laid.
An hour ??? It took ten days.

The ground grid ones require suitable land around a dwelling...most of us live in suburbia, and gardens are generally very small nowadays.

Scotland's Government is pushing renewable energy, and trying hard to encourage folks to change their heating systems. If the air pump was considered to be as excellent as you say you find it, then there would be an awful lot more of them around.

I suspect it's different countries, different climates, different views.

 

[Paul_B]

So if I've got this straight, woodburners aren't causing this fine particulate pollution because everyone isn't burning creosoted wood, got dry wood and modern woodburners. Oh and they all know how to use the woodburners to get that low pollution burn.

Am I the only one seeing an issue or two there? Not least that I believe one of our foremost experts in air pollution has had published enough research indicating that domestic wood burning was a major cause if pm10 and pm2.5 particles in the air in towns.

Oh and another reason is this legislation won't do anything. IMHO we need to start somewhere. Radio 4 this past week mentioned some WHO report saying PM2.5 particles are able to get deep enough into your lungs to cause long term and serious damage according to iirc IARC the body that internationally determines carcinogenicity of man made chemicals and particles. Whether this legislation will do anything I have no idea but doing something is surely better than doing nothing?

 

[Corso]

Citations please Paul?

Do you honestly believe the limited use of a relatively few domestic wood burners in the UK is contributing anything significant to air polution never mind life expectancy?

They have been takling about PM2.5 particles since the 90's

Fine Particulate Air Pollution and US County Life Expectancies

Exposure to fine particulate matter air pollution has been associated with increased risk of cardiopulmonary and lung cancer morbidity and mortality, suggesting that sustained reductions in pollution exposure should result in improved life expectancy. ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Apprantely Indirect calculations have found approximately 0.7 to 1.6 years loss of life expectancy attributable to 10 μg/m3...

if statistical garbage is to be believed best stop breathing in

 

[Toddy]

I think it's unfortunate that having cleared away the concept of an open fire in every house and flat being normal, that the fashion for wood stoves in suburbia has had a detrimental effect on the air quality.
I think the proposed legislation is a rather awkward way to mitigate that, but how else could it be done ?

I don't miss the drudgery of dealing with a fire day after day after day after day, but I do miss a fire.
I can see the appeal of the wood stoves, especially if they're not a daily necessity, but I know just how horrible it was when the neighbour burnt the treated timbers. I wasn't joking about the stench of burning TCP.
I admit that it really put me off having one fitted. I'd even picked out the hearth stone and the stove, and found recommendations for a company who fitted chimneys to gable walls.

It's a bit like invisible flatulence....if you can smell it you know that that air was in someone else's
bowels.
We now know that if you can smell smoke then there are (potentially) harmful particulates in the air you're breathing.
Most off-putting, especially when we're trying to reduce pollution.
I know it's nothing like the mess we made burning coal, and that modern stoves are really very efficient, but I don't need one, not where I live.

M

 

[TLM]

What you say totally contradicts the advice given to us by the people who install them.

Their text seems to deal mainly with air-to-water pumps, I am speaking about air-to-air. As their end temps are different also their COPs are, that is basic thermodynamics. Also their installation is very different as is apparent. And no I am not selling them, just a satisfied user. I did have the advantage that I already had installed air canals (as the cottage can be left to freeze it has no water piping in central heating) but the usefulness of that depends on the size of the house, in a small one those are really not necessary.Freezing is not a theoretical limit but a practical one, below that the outside unit has to run a melting cycle every now and then depending on dew point. Admittedly it runs best at about +8 and very moist air as it then utilizes the latent heat in water vapor.

 

[TeeDee]

It's a bit like invisible flatulence....if you can smell it you know that that air was in someone else's
bowels.


M

( Best quote ever )

 

[slowworm]

So if I've got this straight, woodburners aren't causing this fine particulate pollution because everyone isn't burning creosoted wood, got dry wood and modern woodburners. Oh and they all know how to use the woodburners to get that low pollution burn.

The issue with woodburners is wood that is too wet gives burns at a lower heat and can give off substantially more emissions. It also requires more fuel to produce the same heat.

What is less known is how much a properly run woodburner produces compare to bonfires, open fires and people burning wet wood.

There are other problems such as ammonia emissions from farming that greatly contribute to poor quality air.

As for starting somewhere, I tend to think bad laws can be more harmful than doing nothing. People think something has been done so don't bother doing anything else. This law for example, people can buy logs at 20%, leave them in the rain, and burn them at 30%. Something that's very common.

 

[TLM]

The issue with woodburners is wood that is too wet gives burns at a lower heat and can give off substantially more emissions. It also requires more fuel to produce the same heat.

Things are not quite that simple, low burning temp itself is not necessarily harmful but incomplete burning is. Very high burning temps raise nitrous oxides but on the other hand burn many toxic compounds to less toxic ones. In certain conditions water actually causes cleaner burning (water gas reaction). Wet wood generally does not burn well but if split fine enough (often impractically so) and with ample air it can be burned, generally with lowered efficiency though.

 

[TLM]

When large power station burn wood chips it is at a prefered moisture of 30 percent. Their burning proces is quite controlled in comparison to an average home owner. But it is noteworthy that the size of the chips are fairly small.

 

[Paul_B]

Citations please Paul?

Do you honestly believe the limited use of a relatively few domestic wood burners in the UK is contributing anything significant to air polution never mind life expectancy?

They have been takling about PM2.5 particles since the 90's

Fine Particulate Air Pollution and US County Life Expectancies

Exposure to fine particulate matter air pollution has been associated with increased risk of cardiopulmonary and lung cancer morbidity and mortality, suggesting that sustained reductions in pollution exposure should result in improved life expectancy. ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Apprantely Indirect calculations have found approximately 0.7 to 1.6 years loss of life expectancy attributable to 10 μg/m3...

if statistical garbage is to be believed best stop breathing in

I first heard about the issues with woodburners and particulates a few years ago so can't find the report or news article reporting the research. However a quick Google found this which article referring to a2019 DEFRA report. There's a guardian article from December 2020 discussing 3 or 4 times spikes in indoor pollution when wood burners are reloaded. There's more if you look. One DEFRA sourced figure read 38% of national PM emissions.

Its Clean Air Strategy (published January 2019) states that this makes up 38% of our national PM emissions while, in comparison, industrial combustion is 16% and road transport 12%.

Read more: https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/wood-burning-stoves/article/wood-burning-stoves-what-you-need-to-know/stoves-and-pollution-aIPXC8g7lbu5 - Which?

I'm sure you'll be able to find more sources and even go back to the original sources used by DEFRA reports on the topic.

 

[Paul_B]

I am no expert in such matters and never claim to be. I am someone who lived 40 years without any respiratory issues at all. I then developed asthma type symptoms and have to use salbutamol at times. I've lived over 20 years in the same house and it's been the last 6 or so years that I've had these symptoms. Traffic hasn't increased that much in area but there's a lot more houses with smoke coming out in the town. Whether that's the reason behind my sudden change in respiratory health or not I do not believe it's helping.

BTW when I'm away from the area my respiratory system seems to have fewer episodes of tightness and I use salbutamol less. I'm not using it much but I have periods when I use it more, usually when it's gone into a cold spell out a sudden drop in temperature.

I doubt I'm the only one who's gone from healthy to asthma type symptoms over recent years during which time overall pollution has apparently dropped.

IMHO it's not the heating method that's necessarily the problem more people who are not using it to it's best and least polluting are the problem. It's possible to lower or increase PMs through how you use it. If it's really such an issue isn't it right to try and affect a change and reduction in PMs?

 

[Corso]

Its Clean Air Strategy (published January 2019) states that this makes up 38% of our national PM emissions while, in comparison, industrial combustion is 16% and road transport 12%.

Clealy if you are having issues you should avoid using them but I wouldn't trust anything produced with Goves name on it, particularly the percentages - conviently I see no mention of waste incinerators in that report...

UK waste incinerators three times as likely to be in deprived areas

Greenpeace data raises concern over air quality and health of vulnerable people

www.theguardian.com

Legal challenge over UK's exclusion of incinerators from emissions target

Campaigner says decision at odds with Paris agreement to achieve net zero by 2050

www.theguardian.com

 

[Stew]

I am no expert in such matters and never claim to be. I am someone who lived 40 years without any respiratory issues at all. I then developed asthma type symptoms and have to use salbutamol at times. I've lived over 20 years in the same house and it's been the last 6 or so years that I've had these symptoms. Traffic hasn't increased that much in area but there's a lot more houses with smoke coming out in the town. Whether that's the reason behind my sudden change in respiratory health or not I do not believe it's helping.

BTW when I'm away from the area my respiratory system seems to have fewer episodes of tightness and I use salbutamol less. I'm not using it much but I have periods when I use it more, usually when it's gone into a cold spell out a sudden drop in temperature.

I doubt I'm the only one who's gone from healthy to asthma type symptoms over recent years during which time overall pollution has apparently dropped.

IMHO it's not the heating method that's necessarily the problem more people who are not using it to it's best and least polluting are the problem. It's possible to lower or increase PMs through how you use it. If it's really such an issue isn't it right to try and affect a change and reduction in PMs?

Read the book, ‘the oxygen advantage’. It’ll help your asthma.

 

[santaman2000]

@Paul_B First I want to express my sumpathy that you’ve developed asthma. I had it as a child but outgrew it by about getting 11 or 12 (I lived in the same house with dogs, cats, and an open fireplace the whole time I had it and had outgrown it up until I enlisted at age 19)

That said, an asthma attack may be “triggered” by any number of things (smoke, pollen, pet dander, etc. even sudden fright) but the condition itself isn’t ”caused” but these triggers. Most normally it’s a genetic autoimmune problem.

 

[slowworm]

It's interesting to read what's going on in the US currently. I can't help but feel when we next have a serious long and cold snap we're going to experience some serious power outages. I can see serious shortages of electric but I wonder if we would have similar problems with our gas supply?

Texas weather: Are frozen wind turbines to blame for power cuts?

Frozen wind turbines are being blamed for power failures - but problems with fossils fuels are a bigger issue.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Paul_B]

Read an article in guardian about this topic. There's the same 2019 government report with the 38% of PM2.5 but there's also mention of a survey which have a figure of 8% of the population responsible for those domestic emissions. If true then there's about 27-28 million households so 8% is about 2.2 million households are burning wet wood or house coal or have inefficient open fires/wood burners.

 

[slowworm]

Read an article in guardian about this topic. There's the same 2019 government report with the 38% of PM2.5 but there's also mention of a survey which have a figure of 8% of the population responsible for those domestic emissions. If true then there's about 27-28 million households so 8% is about 2.2 million households are burning wet wood or house coal or have inefficient open fires/wood burners.

If you actually look at the government reports there doesn't seem to be much to back up the claims. I can't find anything that splits up burning in open fires or wood burners or any differentiation between seasoned and unseasoned wood. There's also no mention of bonfires, garden fire baskets, chimineas etc.

I'm not saying there isn't a problem but I suspect the new law will do little to stop the problem as it isn't going to tackle many of the worst emitters.