Ash dieback fungus found in UK

[Stringmaker]

Well indeed, stringmaker. But from a purely pragmatic point of view if a tree is killed by disease it is because it was its time.

Using the phrases like "Ecological Catastrophe" (as several news outlets are doing) to really mean "a natural event humans wont like" is daft. A nuclear waste spill into the North Sea would be an ecological catastrophe, this is just nature refusing to play by man's rules.

It's a pity yes, and the countryside wont be the same afterwards. But there's no reason to expect that nature should adhere to our aesthetic preferences.

One single tree yes; a species no. There is a big difference between the dead/dying ash which we take cramp balls from, and the complete absence of ash trees in the landscape. The pathogen and what it does may be part of the natural ecosystem but there is nothing natural about the way we have enabled its rapid spread.

Edit: Stuey and Toddy beat me to it!

 

[Wook]

Rapid or slow the effect will be the same. The trees without a natural immunity will die, and the trees with a natural immunity will survive.

The trees without an immunity will not magically acquire one just because the disease moves more slowly. Until the disease is in the tree's environment it has no ability to affect their development. So the disease arriving tomorrow or in 2 years will make no difference in that respect.

 

[Skaukraft]

We got it here in Norway also, and is spreading to new areas.
One probable cause is the very wet and cold summers we have had recently.

 

[Stringmaker]

Rapid or slow the effect will be the same. The trees without a natural immunity will die, and the trees with a natural immunity will survive.

The trees without an immunity will not magically acquire one just because the disease moves more slowly.

Agreed.

My point though was about the rate of change to the landscape; we don't notice individual trees dying but we will certainly notice all of them going. I don't want to presume anything about when you were born, but were you around when Dutch Elm did its thing?

 

[Teepee]

It could well be devastating in the short term but one of the greatest strengths of evolution means most living things have amazing genetic diversity. There will be a percentage that will survive that are immune or more resilient to the fungus and new trees can be grown from those. Hopefully the outbreak can be contained but we are so close to Europe the odd spore will always come across on the wind.

I agree with this, if its on mainland europe then it was going to make it over at some point and yes, like the Danish Ash trees, a percentage will be resilient.

The problem around here is that there are no other trees to take their place if they die. Ash makes up the vast majority of trees in the hedgerow and modern farming methods have ensured that any saplings are shredded when the hedges are cut back.

We have large stretched of no hedges now after a fire a few years ago. Lack of maintenance has also rotted through lots of hedges and autumn storms keeps taking the odd Ash down with no replacements in the offing.

Quite simply, if 90% of the Ash trees round here die, the hedgerows will be almost devoid of trees.

 

[Wook]

Agreed.

My point though was about the rate of change to the landscape; we don't notice individual trees dying but we will certainly notice all of them going. I don't want to presume anything about when you were born, but were you around when Dutch Elm did its thing?

A bit before my time, you're right. And I can appreciate that from a purely human point of view that once lush forests being turned into a wasteland is troubling. But what I'm saying is that this is simply the way of things.

Is it upsetting? Yes, of course. But if we were to take our aesthetic and emotional reaction and allow it to goad us into trying to be the shepherds of the trees, that would be the real catastrophe.

Man does not have the wisdom to direct the development of another species. It is better to let nature figure it out.

 

[Toddy]

Mince.

If that were taken to be gospel then the rhinos would be gone, the blue whales, the pandas....and thousands of other species, gone like the dodo.........again before your time, but we know what we did and are trying really hard not to do it again.

Dutch Elm disease, Ash dieback, etc., nature only 'learns' immunity if there are sufficient survivors for immunity/tolerance to become the norm. We don't have enough trees in our islands to allow this to work properly. Thus we have huge issues with such problems.

We contain animal pathogens, such as foot and mouth, or rabies, by quarantine. How do we quarantine trees though

M

 

[Andy BB]

In some respects, Wook is absolutely right. However, under the "normal" (ie no Man) course of events, the disease would spread, but the resistant trees would also spread "naturally". The simple fact is that neither the spread or the growth of "resistant" trees is "natural. As such, the impact will be far greater.

 

[bigroomboy]

Trees actually thrive much more under our management than without, naturally they all compete against each other but in the end over crowd themselves until no trees can grow properly. This is especially true of slow growing trees that never stand a chance. Just as spread may be quicker under our management so would replanting of resilient trees. I'm not saying its a good thing but it is natural (unlike the extinction of most animals which is directly or indirectly caused by humans) many trees live with fungi and many will slowly die its just that this strain of fungi is particularly effective at overcoming the trees defense systems. Once upon a time there were probably birch trees killed quickly by tinder fungus but now surviving trees infected last years.

The spread of infection may be faster but so will be the rate of recovery. That doesnt mean we shouldn't try to stop it, but it also means it is not an ecological catastrophe. As for the infection pathway, is it coincidence that the effected area is closest to the worst effected areas of Europe? It has been found in imported trees before but the first wild examples happen to be in the place spores are most likely to reach on the wind.

 

[Teepee]

It has been found in imported trees before but the first wild examples happen to be in the place spores are most likely to reach on the wind.

Maybe. Theres also the fact that the majority of freight shipping comes into Felixstowe and drives straight through East anglia on the A14. It also has the highest population density and is one of the most affluent regions-garden centres do well(used to) round here. The potential for infection is higher all round.

 

[bigroomboy]

Maybe. Theres also the fact that the majority of freight shipping comes into Felixstowe and drives straight through East anglia on the A14. It also has the highest population density and is one of the most affluent regions-garden centres do well(used to) round here. The potential for infection is higher all round.

All perfectly good explanations as well we may never know, but to say it was brought in by imports is incorrect just as to say it spread on the wind is incorrect.

 

[Wook]

Dutch Elm disease, Ash dieback, etc., nature only 'learns' immunity if there are sufficient survivors for immunity/tolerance to become the norm. We don't have enough trees in our islands to allow this to work properly. Thus we have huge issues with such problems.

This is exactly why we should be cautious about interfering in the natural development of the Ash species.

Right now there is a disease that kills approximately 90% of Ash trees. What if we quarantined our trees to try and protect them, but in 50 years there is a new disease that kills 100% of trees who have not been infected with Ash dieback? We'd have inadvertently caused the extinction of the Ash tree by our efforts to save it.

The Dutch Elm disease is a good example. The remaining areas of Canada that are free of it stay this way by continual spraying of highly carcinogenic pesticides that are known to cause birth defects in pregnant mothers.

And all so they can keep some leafy avenues in the park.....

Dutch Elm Disease is hypothesised to have sprung up and gone away several times in the last few thousand years all by itself.

When man sticks his oar in, that's when things can get really messed up.

Now I should qualify this by saying I believe man should do his utmost to minimise his impact on other species, and to put right what his actions have made wrong. But I don't believe this particular problem to have been caused by man.

 

[Stringmaker]

But I don't believe this particular problem to have been caused by man.

Just for my clarity, are you defining "problem" as the disease or the fact that it has now reached us?

I think the two points raised about imports coming through Felixstowe, and this region being closest to wind borne spores from Northern Europe are probably both contributory. It would have got here eventually, it was just a matter of how long it took and thus how quickly it spread. I do believe that the rapid spread once it has landed is more likely to be down to us.

Incidentally, there are still a few mature elm trees in this region, but their survival owes nothing to disease resistance. In one case I am thinking of it is apparently down to the landscape; the tree is in a deep hollow and so the plague carrying beetles missed it when they were flying about looking for lunch.

 

[Teepee]

This is exactly why we should be cautious about interfering in the natural development of the Ash species.

Right now there is a disease that kills approximately 90% of Ash trees. What if we quarantined our trees to try and protect them, but in 50 years there is a new disease that kills 100% of trees who have not been infected with Ash dieback? We'd have inadvertently caused the extinction of the Ash tree by our efforts to save it.

The Dutch Elm disease is a good example. The remaining areas of Canada that are free of it stay this way by continual spraying of highly carcinogenic pesticides that are known to cause birth defects in pregnant mothers.

And all so they can keep some leafy avenues in the park.....

Dutch Elm Disease is hypothesised to have sprung up and gone away several times in the last few thousand years all by itself.

When man sticks his oar in, that's when things can get really messed up.

Now I should qualify this by saying I believe man should do his utmost to minimise his impact on other species, and to put right what his actions have made wrong. But I don't believe this particular problem to have been caused by man.

Man already intervenes and ensures that ash saplings can't replace the diseased mature trees. They are either chopped off with the hedge cutter or grazed by artificially high numbers of deer.

The infection is not caused by man, the means by which the species will recover has mostly been stopped by us already. Inaction is actually continued action to dessimate the species.

 

[Wook]

That's a good point Teepee. Man has already stuck his oar in, but is more of the same the solution?
Maybe we need to plant a few wild growth forests than leave the trees alone to get on with it.

 

[bigroomboy]

Whilst the amount of forested land in the UK is disappointing when compared to most of the world there has been general reforestation in the last 100 years and in recent years predominantly broad leaf, most of which has been done by man not nature. It is a shame hedge rows are not easily able to grow large developed trees but hedge laying and coppicing can be good for the trees in the long term, they may not look as grand but they should live longer.

http://www.forestry.gov.uk/pdf/Table5UKReport.pdf/$FILE/Table5UKReport.pdf

 

[Teepee]

That's a good point Teepee. Man has already stuck his oar in, but is more of the same the solution?
Maybe we need to plant a few wild growth forests than leave the trees alone to get on with it.

Agreed completely. Aside from any conservational issues, we have a rapidly approaching fuel crisis. Having less and less trees won't help any of us in any way.

The horse has probably bolted, no point shutting the stable door now. Regrowth and planting are obviously the only and also the best way forward.

 

[Stringmaker]

That is precisely what the Woodland Trust has been doing.

Join up and help them continue to do it.

 

[phil1981]

what i would like to know is what steps we can do to minamise or to slow this down.

i.e wash or use different foot ware if you are going to be traveling to different forests. and seperate clothing as well. washing you car, gear, tents and so on.

 

[Toddy]

Wook, I didn't once mention chemical attack to stop the disease. I did say that our shifting things around so quickly is overtaking mother nature's ability to cope as best she might with the disease though.

I think our actions have encouraged a more rapid spread of the disease than the trees can respond to effectively enough to ensure survival, or most that become infected......and since there'll be a heck of a lot more than there would be in a 'natural' environment, there is a problem.

The issue now is how do we ameliorate things? give the trees time to do what's already in their nature.

I wonder if it's like foot and mouth ? Many (healthy ones, and of all varieties) animals do survive it, just as we do chickenpox. We don't give them the chance though. Is this the best way to deal with the trees ? will they succumb or do they come back ? They mostly do from the native blight.

Doesn't seem to be many answers coming from the ones we expect to advise us though

M