Are all 900 down bags the same?

[Paul_B]

Jackets are a different kettle of fish IMHO. In the UK you're likely to be wearing insulated jackets for a significant time. Even as a belay jacket only it'll probably see some time in UK conditions. That's outdoors conditions not inside a tent or other shelter. It's not humidity or sweat wetting the jacket but rain or sleet. There is a benefit to synthetic insulation in those conditions in reckon. Certainly the fibre staple kind does hold structure when dripping wet. There's some insulations that mimic down but I've no experience of that at all however I wouldn't rule out it clumping a bit like down within the baffles.

I've been wet to the skin in synthetic insulation and softshell fleece before now, fortunately not been cold or rather not cold enough for it to be serious. Yet to be in that situation with down jacket because I rarely use down in UK conditions. It's not often needed where no walk in the lakes.

 

[Laurence Milton]

Some good info in this thread, and much to learn. Rightly or wrongly I have just added a Snugpak Softie 15 to my 2 surplus bags (I wanted something a little lighter and more compact when NOT in a canoe...) I was aware of the overegged temp claims but hope it will suffice for the UK....I am going to christen it tonight in my lavvu.
However I do like the option of an extralong length (I am 6'4") and the "expanda" panel, as I like a bit of room. We'll know more tonight!

 

[MikeLA]

Ah but what about fibre pile beats them both eh

 

[Laurence Milton]

Fibre pile?
Interesting both down bags measure smaller than a standard Softie 15 and would therefore be too small for me, at least?

 

[MikeLA]

Yeah I know fibre pile is good and so is down. To me I don’t care how bulky the bag or heavy. Sleep is important and I want to stay dry I like down but have been damp in so many down bags in the past. If I could find a centre zip down bag that would be 100 % great my trips these days are no more than 2 nights so damp bags not too serious.

 

[Old Bones]

If I could find a centre zip down bag that would be 100 % great

I was intrigued as to why they are so rare, and found this thread. Like a lot of things, its about demand - manufacturers have to look at the market as a whole. I suspect its in part due to manufacturing, and in part because you can have a side baffle for a side zip, which is relatively easy to do. But a centre one is less easy to do. And of course we are used to a side zip!

Its no surprise that the bulk of centre zip bags come from the US - its simply a much larger market, so a relatively niche product can be viable. But I notice that even though the likes of Feathered Friends have their Flicker range, with centre zips, they only go down to minus 6 degrees C at most. The bulk of their range are mummy style with side zips.

Fibre Pile is pretty rare now. I do like this quote from a Outdoor Magic forum from 2008:

Buffalo bags are heavy, but very efficient. From a military perspective they are the dog's danglies - mine was regularly soaked, but still did the job. I'm now a fat civvy. I can pretty much guarantee keeping my down bag dry, and it weighs far less, compresses far more.

As a fattish civvie, I can see his point, and the way I keep my down bag is pretty similar. I looked at a Buffalo 4S Outer on their website. 2-.3 season, but 50% heavier than a similar temp rated Rab Ascent 500. I actually couldnt find out how much it even cost - there are not many stockists around.

 

[jonquirk]

I have a PHD Minimus bag with 900 fill power down. It weighs 340g (12oz) and is rated to 8C. I have slept in it wearing merino socks, long johns, long sleeved top, and a balaclava with the bag in an Alpkit Hunka bivouac bag, on top of a Therm-a-rest Neoair when the temperature dropped below 0C and been comfortable. I woke to frost on the grass and ice in my water bottle.

900 fill power down is pricey but makes for an effective bag with a pleasingly light weight.

 

[Paul_B]

PhD always seems to underestimate their performance for reasons laid down by their founder and guru. Of course it's difficult for us to know if you're a warm or cold sleeper. I used to know people who slept in Alpkit's coldest temperature rated sleeping bag in summer!!!

Also, things like fitness, exercise before bed and even eating certain foods immediately before turning in affects warmth of sleep. My favourite trick was eating plain peanuts in my bag as I wound down to sleep. IIRC the process it's called thermogenesis where your body creates heat through digestion of food eaten. Typically within 30 minutes you'll get the effect. Easier to stay warm than get warm imho.

Btw PHD have an advice page about performance temperature of sleeping bags and clothing. Worth reading aiui it's from PH himself. If that's true then it'll be a good bit of advice to follow. Iirc he's basically saying testing is rubbish and they work on testing and real life experiences of the testers and knowledgeable people who they work with. If you've followed their development you'll have seen them start from some very good products then improve further based on feedback and product development. A really good brand if you can afford their stuff.

 

[MikeLA]

Not a one position sleeper even outdoors toss and turn so the amount of times in the past I’ve tried to get out of a side zip sleeping bag especially mummy type a and first struggle to find the zip end or once found snagged it while opening must have done that maybe 100’s of times. Discovered military centre zips and never ever had a problem since. So even though a owned an alpkit I always went back to other bags for the above reason. I like duck down, like fibre pile for the warm and robustness and like synthetic when I know I will be using a bivvy bag without basha or tent. Not bothered about the extra bulk or weight. My most important bit of camping kit.

 

[Paul_B]

How does a centre zip stop the twisting of the bag? Also, does the top of the zip have what's known as a garage to stop contact with your chin like good coats do? I'd have thought the centre zip would be annoying personally. I've once forgotten my sleeping bag on a very frosty night in a poorly insulated static caravan, I had to sleep in my down smock. I found the zip being on top annoying.

IMHO the be side zip is the best location. With any sleeping bag night time movement can cause issues such as tolling onto the zip but TBH that's a minor issue. Twisting a bag up can happen with any design.

Also if space is an issue then there's always XL bags out there. My bag is stated as suitable for up to 6'6" tall. I'm an inch under that but found it comfortable on a cold night too sleep lower down with my arms folded above the head within the hood section. Plus it's oversized in girth that's not needed so much since I'm relatively slim for my height. Plenty for extran layers if needed.

Then there's the excellent shaped quilt. No zip at all!

 

[Old Bones]

Not bothered about the extra bulk or weight.

Thats perhaps the difference I notice most between hiking and bushcrafting in terms of equipment. Hikers are always looking for lighter and smaller, and so will more likely to go for down bags, Osprey rucksacks, etc.

I have a PHD Minimus bag with 900 fill power down.

PhD always seems to underestimate their performance for reasons laid down by their founder and guru.

PHD do lovely stuff (their sale has some very nice kit), and its very much about lightness and bulk, as you would expect. I suspect that Mountain Equipment, Rab, Feathered Friends, Western Mountaineering (those two are available here from one or two stockists), Mountain Hardwear and Valandre, and others tend to slightly under play their products in terms of warmth - its better to underpromise and over deliver when you have a reputation to maintain. And the EN rating is a guide only, although at least its a lot better than '3 Season', which doesnt tell you much at all.

 

[Laurence Milton]

How does a centre zip stop the twisting of the bag? Also, does the top of the zip have what's known as a garage to stop contact with your chin like good coats do? I'd have thought the centre zip would be annoying personally. I've once forgotten my sleeping bag on a very frosty night in a poorly insulated static caravan, I had to sleep in my down smock. I found the zip being on top annoying.

IMHO the be side zip is the best location. With any sleeping bag night time movement can cause issues such as tolling onto the zip but TBH that's a minor issue. Twisting a bag up can happen with any design.

Also if space is an issue then there's always XL bags out there. My bag is stated as suitable for up to 6'6" tall. I'm an inch under that but found it comfortable on a cold night too sleep lower down with my arms folded above the head within the hood section. Plus it's oversized in girth that's not needed so much since I'm relatively slim for my height. Plenty for extran layers if needed.

Then there's the excellent shaped quilt. No zip at all!

Interesting...... I must admit I have no preference ....perhaps centre zips by a smidgen, but only because the zip issue you mention has never been a problem, certainly not on my Dutch M90 bag, which has superb zip baffles and a chin sort of baffle. My new Snugpak has a side zip, and that's not an issue either?
And yes, I can manage to twist any bag!!

 

[Paul_B]

That's really my point, all bags twist if you're a wriggler. Side or centre is really a choice. Indeed you can get bags without zips too.

I've never had a centre zip so admit to not seeing the advantage of that design, only my perceived negative of a zip resting on top of you. When I've wriggled to end up with my side zip on top I noticed it. I'm happy with side zip plus there's more choice too.