animals recognising death
- Thread starter xylaria
- Start date
Why keep a pet if not for emotional support and company? How that manifests itself is neither here or there.
There has been a lot of research into whether fish feel pain. And the conclusions are not in the way we do. But that begs the question what right do we have to conduct such experiments, on animals we share the enviroment with just to satisfy our own agenda?
I dont think we do really.
But paradoxically it will not stop me eating my salmon bage....errr... sandwiches.
Dont wanna come across as a bleeding heart, but I just think if youre gonna take a life, its something you should struggle with occasionally.
In fact if more people did kill their own food, instead of just buying their food prepackaged from the supermarket shelf, animals welfare in general would probably be a lot better.
Maybe it should be mandatory for all schoolchildren to visit an abbatoir?
Anyway, heading OT now..
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To put things in perspective, refering the orginal story the same size cat on another road could of stood a chance of trip home in the boot and ending up as dinner. I make no apoligies if you find that unpallatable. The only thing that has ever stopped road kill cat getting on the menu is that there will be some human morning the cats loss. I dont think a life or a death should be wasted, and I have no issues eating road kill. It is in the same vane that I dont have an issue eating horse. They have got to the end of their useful life, I dont think the meat should be wasted. We only have an objection to horse meat because we see their emotional range and view them as some how higher than the dinner plate.
Horses and dogs and to some extent cats show emotions we as humans can see and empathise with. Dogs emotions are very easy for us to see, until we miss read them, dont respect the fact they are pack carnivores with differant social rules and then we get bitten. More people get killed by cows [not sure this is total fact] than by dogs but we have a perception that cows are docile. We can't read the emotions of cows, chickens and sheep very well, which seemly makes them easier to eat. We seem to get into a moral quandry if we think an animal is capable of feeling emotion especially grief or pain that maybe we shouldnt eat it. This one point is what separates us from every other animal. No other animals makes a moral choice to make kill as fast, as painless, or less distressing. The speed of a kill is due not wasting energy in every other preditor apart from us.
Animals dont question whether an animal has feelings if it threatens their food scource or their genetic survival. Birds will devistate a bean or pea crop, so need to be controlled regardless. We are not alone as animals in feeling lost of those close, but a hunter is an equal not a superior.
Horses and dogs and to some extent cats show emotions we as humans can see and empathise with. Dogs emotions are very easy for us to see, until we miss read them, dont respect the fact they are pack carnivores with differant social rules and then we get bitten. More people get killed by cows [not sure this is total fact] than by dogs but we have a perception that cows are docile. We can't read the emotions of cows, chickens and sheep very well, which seemly makes them easier to eat. We seem to get into a moral quandry if we think an animal is capable of feeling emotion especially grief or pain that maybe we shouldnt eat it. This one point is what separates us from every other animal. No other animals makes a moral choice to make kill as fast, as painless, or less distressing. The speed of a kill is due not wasting energy in every other preditor apart from us.
Animals dont question whether an animal has feelings if it threatens their food scource or their genetic survival. Birds will devistate a bean or pea crop, so need to be controlled regardless. We are not alone as animals in feeling lost of those close, but a hunter is an equal not a superior.
Great post Xylaria. Now here is my anti dog rant. The same twee neighbour with the dog (which is quite a nice dog really....hard little terrier of some sort if she would stop clipping its coat in a stupid way and then having to make it wear an overcoat), has had two agressive cow encounters. I should add that these are marsh grazed cattle and semi feral. She walks the dog amongst cows and the cows (especially those with calves) perceive the dog as a threat and do the whole herd cluster heads outward thing.
I asked her what she did with dog
She picks it up and walks towards the cows to continue on the footpath!
I explained to her that cows usually kill either people in buildings (accidentally just by crushing) or dog walkers. I explained next time if really threatened just slip the lead - the dog will outrun the cows - but she wont! Once the dog is elsewhere, most cows no longer see a person as a threat. Sure young bullocks may charge you - but thats just because the only time they see a human is to deliver feed sometimes - so they want their lunch
It does amaze me sometimes how ignorant people are about animal behaviour. Its why the "anthopomorhising" thing annoys me. The cows don't see a dog as "her baby" they see it as a fox or a wolf - and react accordingly. Most animal psychologists use things like pack behaviour to explain roles, dominance etc. Thats good and healthy. Once you see it as an animal and understand the stimuli a pack animal responds to, you can be a "good owner". When you see it as a baby, you treat it as a human - not as a canine pack animal, and give it all the wrong signals...so it becomes a "bad dog" (read bad owner).
I asked her what she did with dog
She picks it up and walks towards the cows to continue on the footpath!
I explained to her that cows usually kill either people in buildings (accidentally just by crushing) or dog walkers. I explained next time if really threatened just slip the lead - the dog will outrun the cows - but she wont! Once the dog is elsewhere, most cows no longer see a person as a threat. Sure young bullocks may charge you - but thats just because the only time they see a human is to deliver feed sometimes - so they want their lunch
It does amaze me sometimes how ignorant people are about animal behaviour. Its why the "anthopomorhising" thing annoys me. The cows don't see a dog as "her baby" they see it as a fox or a wolf - and react accordingly. Most animal psychologists use things like pack behaviour to explain roles, dominance etc. Thats good and healthy. Once you see it as an animal and understand the stimuli a pack animal responds to, you can be a "good owner". When you see it as a baby, you treat it as a human - not as a canine pack animal, and give it all the wrong signals...so it becomes a "bad dog" (read bad owner).
Animals recognising death. The title caught my eye and I just had to read the posts. Not sure if this is in keeping with the thread or not but decided to share recent events.
Many years ago we lost one of our cats due to being hit with a car. The other cat did go through about 2 weeks of being restless and hardly eating. Just spent all of his time visiting the common places where they spent most of their time together. Sometimes just walking from room to room meowing and nothing would make him stop. I think he was missing more than mourning but then I sometimes think again after reading thing and recent events.
My parents have a cat too. The cat and my dad seem to have a very close indeed. When my dad has been away from home the cat goes off his food for about two days. Then he will eat but spend all the time sat in dads armchair as if waiting for his return. I can understand if my dad fed the cat but mum takes care of that.
A few years ago my dad was diagnosed with cancer. With treatment and surgery dad seemed to be winning the battle. Just before Christmas the cancer came back stronger than ever. This January came the news it was terminal. Dad remained active until the pain and weakness became too much and is now bed ridden. The same cat that I mentioned before has not left his side. The cat would not leave the bed to have any food, mum tried various tinned and even fresh roast chicken but nothing would tempt him away. Some of us are daft when it comes to our pets, so mum started to put his food bowl on the bedroom floor and the cat started to eat.
I have a German shepherd who is about 18 months. When I visit my parents I have taken her along since she was a small puppy. Dad has never really been a dog lover at all. He would put up with my dog but never took an interest or stroked her. Two weeks ago my dads health went down hill. I took my dog for a walk and decided to call in and see my parents. She is a clever dog and seems to recognise if we are going to the park and happily walks to heal or, forest at which she does pull on the lead with excitement. This particular day she pulled on the lead like a cart horse. She took me to my parents house. As we got to the backdoor she became most fretful. I knocked and opened the door and still she was fretful. The only thing that had changed was that dad was too ill to get out of bed, so his chair was empty. She paced round and round the chair, stopping to look over the arm just in case he had appeared. She then went and sat at the door to the hallway and stairs.
Dad did make the effort and came downstairs and sat in his chair. I had to hold my dog back as she became so excited to see him. In my mind there is not the bond between them as like she has with other people that make a fuss of her. I got her favourite training toy out and distracted her with a bit of training/showing off. She would not bring me back the toy. She circled dad in his chair who paid little attention to her. She then stopped circling and stared at dad. Approached really gently and released the toy in his lap before placing her head also in his lap. At this point my eyes filled with tears. Dad chucked the toy and said get away you daft thing or word to that effect. She pick up her toy and hopped up next to dad and just sat staring at dad eye to eye. Normally she can be very excitable and likes to lick people to death. They stared at each other for a few seconds before she dropped her toy on his lap again. I was about to tell her to get off and to stop dad getting annoyed. She shuffled up closer to dad and got real close. She stretched out her neck and gave dad the most tender and gentlest single lick on his cheek. It is the first time I have seen my dad smile since getting the bad news. She then tried to sit on dad but at nearly six stone was too much and I called her away. She then laid at his feet like he was the master.
I have questioned as to whether their cat knows that dad is not well/going to die. Then for my dog to act the way she did, has she sensed something? She is off her food a little at the moment but I have thought it could be due to heightened emotions/stress in the house at the moment. It does lead me to think that there may be something that animals can sense.
I plan on going to see my parents today. I am not sure if to take my dog with me or not? I sort of want to because if dad is awake/aware he may like to see her again and her him (probably one last time) or am I being daft in the head?
Many years ago we lost one of our cats due to being hit with a car. The other cat did go through about 2 weeks of being restless and hardly eating. Just spent all of his time visiting the common places where they spent most of their time together. Sometimes just walking from room to room meowing and nothing would make him stop. I think he was missing more than mourning but then I sometimes think again after reading thing and recent events.
My parents have a cat too. The cat and my dad seem to have a very close indeed. When my dad has been away from home the cat goes off his food for about two days. Then he will eat but spend all the time sat in dads armchair as if waiting for his return. I can understand if my dad fed the cat but mum takes care of that.
A few years ago my dad was diagnosed with cancer. With treatment and surgery dad seemed to be winning the battle. Just before Christmas the cancer came back stronger than ever. This January came the news it was terminal. Dad remained active until the pain and weakness became too much and is now bed ridden. The same cat that I mentioned before has not left his side. The cat would not leave the bed to have any food, mum tried various tinned and even fresh roast chicken but nothing would tempt him away. Some of us are daft when it comes to our pets, so mum started to put his food bowl on the bedroom floor and the cat started to eat.
I have a German shepherd who is about 18 months. When I visit my parents I have taken her along since she was a small puppy. Dad has never really been a dog lover at all. He would put up with my dog but never took an interest or stroked her. Two weeks ago my dads health went down hill. I took my dog for a walk and decided to call in and see my parents. She is a clever dog and seems to recognise if we are going to the park and happily walks to heal or, forest at which she does pull on the lead with excitement. This particular day she pulled on the lead like a cart horse. She took me to my parents house. As we got to the backdoor she became most fretful. I knocked and opened the door and still she was fretful. The only thing that had changed was that dad was too ill to get out of bed, so his chair was empty. She paced round and round the chair, stopping to look over the arm just in case he had appeared. She then went and sat at the door to the hallway and stairs.
Dad did make the effort and came downstairs and sat in his chair. I had to hold my dog back as she became so excited to see him. In my mind there is not the bond between them as like she has with other people that make a fuss of her. I got her favourite training toy out and distracted her with a bit of training/showing off. She would not bring me back the toy. She circled dad in his chair who paid little attention to her. She then stopped circling and stared at dad. Approached really gently and released the toy in his lap before placing her head also in his lap. At this point my eyes filled with tears. Dad chucked the toy and said get away you daft thing or word to that effect. She pick up her toy and hopped up next to dad and just sat staring at dad eye to eye. Normally she can be very excitable and likes to lick people to death. They stared at each other for a few seconds before she dropped her toy on his lap again. I was about to tell her to get off and to stop dad getting annoyed. She shuffled up closer to dad and got real close. She stretched out her neck and gave dad the most tender and gentlest single lick on his cheek. It is the first time I have seen my dad smile since getting the bad news. She then tried to sit on dad but at nearly six stone was too much and I called her away. She then laid at his feet like he was the master.
I have questioned as to whether their cat knows that dad is not well/going to die. Then for my dog to act the way she did, has she sensed something? She is off her food a little at the moment but I have thought it could be due to heightened emotions/stress in the house at the moment. It does lead me to think that there may be something that animals can sense.
I plan on going to see my parents today. I am not sure if to take my dog with me or not? I sort of want to because if dad is awake/aware he may like to see her again and her him (probably one last time) or am I being daft in the head?
In Wiltshire we had two cats that several people in the village really approved of for both their rat killing abilities and for their empathy. For example, a man a few doors down from us lost his wife and they virtually moved in with him for a few days. Those were the days when a sick child might spend the day at a neighbours house if their parents had to go out and the child was kept off school. If one such was at our place one of our cats would "adopt" the child and spend the day with it. The sadness was that this cat became terminally ill while we were on holiday and died without the comfort it had shown to others.
The whole crow family is fascinating and they will mob a sick member as we found out one day. Our labrador cross suddenly rushed off across a large field to a commotion in the distance. Short while later she brought a still alive but very damaged crow back to us. As I said before I have no problem with killing animals where necessary and despatched the bird as humanely as possible. Of course the parliament might have been expressing concern rather than mobbing but as others have said we cannot truly know the emotions of animals but they do have them. Our dog probably just saw dinner.
The whole crow family is fascinating and they will mob a sick member as we found out one day. Our labrador cross suddenly rushed off across a large field to a commotion in the distance. Short while later she brought a still alive but very damaged crow back to us. As I said before I have no problem with killing animals where necessary and despatched the bird as humanely as possible. Of course the parliament might have been expressing concern rather than mobbing but as others have said we cannot truly know the emotions of animals but they do have them. Our dog probably just saw dinner.
I've seen magpies doing the same thing right outside my front door in suburban Leeds, I felt like going out and trying to shoo them off but I thought it best to leave nature to do its thing. The poor thing couldn't fly so was just running around in circles while four or five others swooped in to peck at it.
Never mind the kids, many adults are fairly clueless as to where their food comes from, a couple of pics...
Tommaso Ausili's award winning photo from an Italian abattoir.
I think this pig recognises death and knows that the end is coming soon.
A still from Farmrun's site.
This pig is going to die shortly, it is fortunate to be raised to be killed and eaten by a small(ish) number of people who are all local to and involved with that pigs life and care.
Obviously for as long as folks want cheap pork (and horse) sausages available to them for most of the year then pigs and other animals are going to recognise a lot of death before their end comes.
A bit of topic there I think, I'm off now.
And what is so superior about "dear" food, this ceaseless propaganda against "cheap" food ignores reality for most of the world. Oh yes say people on metropolitan radio earning multiples of the average wage, "buy local, buy on the High Street etc etc". No argument against humane slaughter and of course halal and kosher slaughter should be banned. If ever an animal could anticipate death then cutting its throat would seem a sure way of telling it was about to die.
I'm somehow being reminded of Wittgenstein and the quote, "If a lion could speak, we wouldn't understand it".
I remember watching war horse at the end were the unwanted horses were lined up to be shot, but the photos show the horses seeing the one i front be shot, horrible and upsetting
A few Chimpanzees & Gorillas have been taught sign language which might have given us a better insight into how they think & feel but unfortunately, apart from "I'm sad" or I'm pleased" the majority of the conversations are reduced to "I want this" or "I want that "................prehaps animals have the same problem of understanding & discussing their emotions as men..
