Exactly that, not inferior - but "alien" for want of a better word. Unless I live as a cat - with a cat's senses and a cats stimuli I can't "understand" a cat.
animals recognising death
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Exactly that, not inferior - but "alien" for want of a better word. Unless I live as a cat - with a cat's senses and a cats stimuli I can't "understand" a cat.
Elen Sentier
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Corvids are not horrid ... just your perception, turn it round the other way and see how horrid you appear from a crow's perspective.
This was a sad tale last year ..
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/dog-stands-runover-friend-article-1.1223410
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/dog-stands-runover-friend-article-1.1223410
Renown pair of car jacking dogs. "When she get out the Mercedes, we move... You do pedals and I'll steer"
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Elen Sentier
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
IMO we have no right to put any judgement on animals, let alone using our own current mores as a guideline
once upon a time, not so long ago, we hanged people in public and thousands came to watch! Humans still rape their children
Current archaeological thinking is that humans began with agriculture about 10,000 years ago. This brought in the concept of mine/yours, ownership and possibly even superiority all of which began the human wrecking of the environment. It has got especially bad since industrial farming and industry in general. Until we began this slippery slope we knew animals, plants, the whole of Nature for our brethren, not our inferiors and certainly not there just for us to use.
Eating your offspring seems to come about when conditions are inappropriate for them to live, or (for males) if they are not your get. Many animals can re-ingest their offspring in the womb rather than have them born into a scenario where they will die badly. There is some talk that humans also had this ability but lost it.
My 65 years of living closely with animals wild and domestic has shown me how very complex their ways of life are. They care deeply about all sorts of things, even to the extent of suffering loss-trauma for several years when they lose a dear companion; one of my cats is just coming out of this now after 6+ years. When I had my psychotherapy practice the cats knew which clients needed them, when and how, they were most helpful; careful observation showed how they would fine-tune their responses to each client to enable the person, it was (and is) fascinating to watch.
Animals dont see Life as we do, why should they? They are different and every single species is far, far older than us and so has all of that innate hard-wired experience we are, as yet, too young to have. Every animal Ive lived and worked with, however briefly, has shown me their emotions and helped me understand my own better. All those years of experience have enabled me to understand a cat, horse, dog, rabbit, bird, etc fairly well although probably nothing like as well as they understand me judging by how they treat me!
Your pair of cats, Xylara, just speak to me, Ive seen this quite often and with other animals too. Thank you for posting about them although it tears my heart.
Current archaeological thinking is that humans began with agriculture about 10,000 years ago. This brought in the concept of mine/yours, ownership and possibly even superiority all of which began the human wrecking of the environment. It has got especially bad since industrial farming and industry in general. Until we began this slippery slope we knew animals, plants, the whole of Nature for our brethren, not our inferiors and certainly not there just for us to use.
Eating your offspring seems to come about when conditions are inappropriate for them to live, or (for males) if they are not your get. Many animals can re-ingest their offspring in the womb rather than have them born into a scenario where they will die badly. There is some talk that humans also had this ability but lost it.
My 65 years of living closely with animals wild and domestic has shown me how very complex their ways of life are. They care deeply about all sorts of things, even to the extent of suffering loss-trauma for several years when they lose a dear companion; one of my cats is just coming out of this now after 6+ years. When I had my psychotherapy practice the cats knew which clients needed them, when and how, they were most helpful; careful observation showed how they would fine-tune their responses to each client to enable the person, it was (and is) fascinating to watch.
Animals dont see Life as we do, why should they? They are different and every single species is far, far older than us and so has all of that innate hard-wired experience we are, as yet, too young to have. Every animal Ive lived and worked with, however briefly, has shown me their emotions and helped me understand my own better. All those years of experience have enabled me to understand a cat, horse, dog, rabbit, bird, etc fairly well although probably nothing like as well as they understand me judging by how they treat me!
Your pair of cats, Xylara, just speak to me, Ive seen this quite often and with other animals too. Thank you for posting about them although it tears my heart.
I think that all mammals are capable of feeling the same emotions as we all have the same brains & nervous systems but that their effects differ in each species & in each individual within.............many of the 'human feelings ' which some folk hold in higher esteem than those of animals are in fact merely the result of social conditioning.
In many species the male will KILL the young of another male (or even their own offspring in the case of Grizzlies) but I know of non where they EAT them. That's usually only the females.
I don't believe there is any way to know what an animal "feels" - one can observe behaviour and offer conjecture as to the cause of that behaviour. I certainly think there is a lot of social conditioning in that intepretation, people for example believe that domestic animals can "feel" but you hear much less "emotions" ascribed to rats and mice (as an example) or fish. Do carp hooked and injured repeatedly suffer trauma? Is a chicken saddened by the loss of its eggs? Who can really know?
Agreed. For now at least. However there are studies (admitedly with domestic animals, dogs in particular) where they've hooked up the animals to equipment measuring brain activity. Thoes experiments showed that when exposed to the same emotion stimulating experiences, the dogs had similar activity in the same parts of their brains as do humans.
Is it instinct or sentience? Who knows.
It is intriguing...and where does it end? Do a billion bacteria suffer an agonising death when I wipe down a work surface? Are their lives less worthy than a mouse or a dog or horse? Should we give a fly a cuddle rather than a blast of RAID?
Its quite prevalent in, for example, rabbits. Not for reasons of cold or lack of food - some does just eat their young - repeatedly, litter after litter.
http://www.debmark.com/rabbits/faq/eatyoung.htm
I think people are mostly thinking about their eating habits.
They'll take the young from other birds' etst, for example.
I do read about folks who talk about their cats being 'happy' which obviously absolute tosh, at the most a cat is never more than 'moderately satisfied'.
Careful BR. You could steer the thread towards the emotional responses given a year or two ago when I argued a similar point on the thread about the Georgia hunter killing the rattlesnake.
I think you know my feelings. I'm a hunter and have no problems with that. I also have no problems killing (humanely or otherwise) bugs, fish, snakes, or bacteria/viruses. And I have no problems executing violent criminals such as (some) murderers and child rapists or some non-violent criminals such as deserters and traitors.
I have been a farmer/rancher but I do have a problem killing livestock. Ironic isn't it. My problem there (vs killing game animals) is that in the case of the farm animals, I'd be killing a creature that trusts me rather than one expecting to be hunted and killied.
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I think everyone is entitled to their foibles santaman. Its just interesting how we rationalise treating the lives of some living things as somehow of greater value than others. I think we are all entitled to arrive at our own set of values....I know I would take more care shooting a rabbit than swatting a fly. I am I hope sufficiently self aware (as you are) to acknowledge the illogicality of that position though. Just because something is furry and cute, or responds to stimuli in a way with which we can empathise, does that make their life of greater worth?
Probably not. At least not in the larger scale of the universe. But I suspect that reaction (an emotion in itself) is somewhat of an evolutionary response; what we think of as "cute" is probably related to things that help us survive therefore on the smaller scale of our personal well being, yes, some of those animals probably do have more value than others (to us) Does that make sense?
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To an extent - but fish are a useful foodsource...and we don't coo over a mackerel
Its all a bit odd to me (or maybe I am odd). I have a neighbour who talks to her dog in an "ickle baby" voice and even refers to the animal as "my baby". It triggers a gag reflex in me to be honest - its an animal, not a "baby"
Its all a bit odd to me (or maybe I am odd). I have a neighbour who talks to her dog in an "ickle baby" voice and even refers to the animal as "my baby". It triggers a gag reflex in me to be honest - its an animal, not a "baby"
There is no logic or consistency in the way we regard different animals. What would be barbaric if done to, say a dog or cat, is ok for a badger or a fox. As for bacteria, don't they have rights too?
