i dont want to drag to other thread off topic so i will post this here..
i didnt know it had been disproven.. where the info on this?
Gary said:
i didnt know it had been disproven.. where the info on this?
Aluminium..
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Tomtom,
Not disproven, here's what the Alzheimer's society conclude:
read the full thing here:
Alzheimer's and Aluminium
Not disproven, here's what the Alzheimer's society conclude:
read the full thing here:
Alzheimer's and Aluminium
i was always told that it was link to the disease.. but all my re-search turned up was that there was no proof either way, better safe than sorry thought i, and always avoided it... i though that Gary had some new information.
An uncle of one of my mates works at a factory where they do nothing but work with Alu, it's making something for aircraft I'm not sure what. I spoke to him about this and apparently it's a bit of an in-joke with them - they do not believe there can be any link and none of them know anyone who has got Alzheimers who is or has been in the plant. He was adamant about it and said he knew some scientists working on it (which was true) and there was no chance, so I'm not a bit worried myself! :wave:
From being about 12 years old, I've been using aluminium cookware (I'm now 42) and have never had any problems. I think if you probably ate a load of aluminium there may be a problem, but how much in real terms would you ingest over a lifetime cooking in ally pots? In relation to say driving to work every day and breathing vehicle fumes?? I think we probably ingest more toxins walking down a busy road than simply cooking in an aluminium pan :?:
My dad has Alzheimers. Pray you don't end this way. Ironically he was a pioneer in the use of composites in the aircraft industry. He got the aluminum out of the vehicles! Íts tough to see him like this. He was a matamatical genius and most of the aircraft he worked on are still serving. I'm prone to believe its genetic rather than enviromental. Tough break for me... Mac
EdS
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Handling Al doesn't represent a problem - it is when it gets into the blood stream, danger starts.
Boil general foods should be OK as the oxide layer is generally non reactive and prevents the elemental metal from contacting the food. However, if you boil some thing with a low pH (sour fruit, cider etc) or very high pH it will be removed allowing traces of the underlying metal to go into solution - then into your bloodstream.
Anything that physically scratches the pan will also remove the oxide layer - ie beating with fork, using a metal spatular while frying.
Personally, i prefer SS as it is easier to clean and I tend to make mulled wine/cider when camping. Also Al pan can (relatively) easily melt if used on hot coals, direct heat- done it myself.
Boil general foods should be OK as the oxide layer is generally non reactive and prevents the elemental metal from contacting the food. However, if you boil some thing with a low pH (sour fruit, cider etc) or very high pH it will be removed allowing traces of the underlying metal to go into solution - then into your bloodstream.
Anything that physically scratches the pan will also remove the oxide layer - ie beating with fork, using a metal spatular while frying.
Personally, i prefer SS as it is easier to clean and I tend to make mulled wine/cider when camping. Also Al pan can (relatively) easily melt if used on hot coals, direct heat- done it myself.
Some years ago I took sight of a well researched and [seemingly] definitive piece on the Alzheimer/aluminium relationship. On balance there did seem to be a relationship between levels of alu in the brain and the prevalence of the disease.
But the most interesting part of the treatise dealt with the mechanism by which the body might absorb alu. The bottom line? The human body rejects alu and alu oxide and will not absorb it. I.e. alu pots and pans are fine in normal use.
The issue is when acidic fruits are cooked in alu containers. [worst case cited would be rhubarb in an alu pressure cooker] In this case the alu reacts with the acids to create aluminium-citrates. These citrates are ingested by the body and can find their way into the brain. They cannot then be eliminated.
I will try to establish the source of the data and post a link if successful.
But the most interesting part of the treatise dealt with the mechanism by which the body might absorb alu. The bottom line? The human body rejects alu and alu oxide and will not absorb it. I.e. alu pots and pans are fine in normal use.
The issue is when acidic fruits are cooked in alu containers. [worst case cited would be rhubarb in an alu pressure cooker] In this case the alu reacts with the acids to create aluminium-citrates. These citrates are ingested by the body and can find their way into the brain. They cannot then be eliminated.
I will try to establish the source of the data and post a link if successful.
Further to my last posting, try Googling with [ "aluminium citrate" alzheimer's] in the search. One good hit so far:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1575096&dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1575096&dopt=Abstract
I think I remember Liz saying something about not using aluminium pots for jam-making due to the acid and temperature of the mixture - I'll have to check with her.
But otherwise I have no probs using aluminium cooking pots such as my Swedish army cookset. As has been pointed out, the aluminium (which is highly reactive) forms an oxide layer which is non-reactive in most situations.
Best wishes
Bruce
But otherwise I have no probs using aluminium cooking pots such as my Swedish army cookset. As has been pointed out, the aluminium (which is highly reactive) forms an oxide layer which is non-reactive in most situations.
Best wishes
Bruce
EdS
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
There is also a potential link between Alzhiemer's and tea. Tea has considerable levels of Al in it as Camellia readily take it up from the soil (generally second most abundant metal after Fe in soil).
If I remember the "danger" level is around 10 cups per day.
If I remember the "danger" level is around 10 cups per day.
guys, read the link I posted above to the Alzheimer's society. There seems to be a lot of myths floating round about Alumimium. My take on this is that if the Alzheimer's society say there's nothing to convincingly demonstrate a casual link then that is pretty much the latest ( if not last!) word.
Of course as the bushcraft and science thread is discussing, there's always the chance that further research will change this position, but that's true about everything. :?:
Of course as the bushcraft and science thread is discussing, there's always the chance that further research will change this position, but that's true about everything. :?:
This is interesting a similar thread is running on BB - the link posted to my mind claims that the links between the disease and Ali are not proven and as such the myth is that their is a link - I guess this is a debate which, like the hunting one, will go on and one with one side claiming its right and the other saying it is.
Personally I will use Ali, titanium, stainless, caste iron or whatever I please as I am more likely to breath in more dangerious levels of toxins ect just walking down the road!
Sometimes you just cant worry about everything in life - well you can but then the worry would probably kill you too!
Personally I will use Ali, titanium, stainless, caste iron or whatever I please as I am more likely to breath in more dangerious levels of toxins ect just walking down the road!
Sometimes you just cant worry about everything in life - well you can but then the worry would probably kill you too!
My wife is a therapist working specifically with the elderly mentally ill. I asked her to look into the aluminium for me a while back. It was after some consultation with various doctors in the field, decided that there was not link between aluminium and dementia. Although taking up smoking in later life is apparently beneficial. The theories concerning the causes of most types of dementia Vascular and Alzheimers etc change regularly. I have now gone back to using ali pots. Diet and stress have a greater effect than ali.
I shall attempt to get Val to post some info.
I shall attempt to get Val to post some info.
Wayne said:
That would be great Wayne, because, with all respect to link posters, it would be niice to hear the opinions of someone who knows the subject.
Posting links is great, but I am sure we could all find links for or against any arguement including this one. Its like theoretical bushcraft skills, you can read how easy it is to make a quinzee if you trapped on a snow covered mountain in a blizzard with nothing but your underpants and a tooth pick - but making one is a different story!
I'm a psychiatric nurse so have a little knowledge of the subject 
, although I don't do much work with people with Alzheimer's now so wouldn't consider myself an expert. I do know where to go to get the information I need. For stuff like this it's best to go with science rather than opinion, anecdote or experience. It's different from bushcraft in that respect so I don't see a link with quinzees or hunting.
If the question is does ingesting aluminium cause Alzheimer's disease then the best current answer is that there is no proven link. Who do you trust to get that information from? For me I'd look to those scientists who work in the field. The best summary of that information appears to be available from the Alzheimer's Disease society, they've got no axe to grind, hence the link to their leaflet It's a long leaflet and I wouldn't want to breach their copyright. Here's another link to a paper called Causes of Alzheimer's disease Here's a snip from that article
Scientific knowledge about health and illness is always developing and it's not absolutely unknown for old advice to be thrown out because it makes things worse rather than better.
How any of us use this information is down to individual choice, and as you say Gary we probably run greater risks walking down the road.. or on our way to do some bushcraft... and I'm just wondering whether finding your self on a mountain-side with just your underpants and a toothpick might lead to a diagnosis of Alzheimer's Disease?
):
, although I don't do much work with people with Alzheimer's now so wouldn't consider myself an expert. I do know where to go to get the information I need. For stuff like this it's best to go with science rather than opinion, anecdote or experience. It's different from bushcraft in that respect so I don't see a link with quinzees or hunting.If the question is does ingesting aluminium cause Alzheimer's disease then the best current answer is that there is no proven link. Who do you trust to get that information from? For me I'd look to those scientists who work in the field. The best summary of that information appears to be available from the Alzheimer's Disease society, they've got no axe to grind, hence the link to their leaflet It's a long leaflet and I wouldn't want to breach their copyright. Here's another link to a paper called Causes of Alzheimer's disease Here's a snip from that article
Scientific knowledge about health and illness is always developing and it's not absolutely unknown for old advice to be thrown out because it makes things worse rather than better.
How any of us use this information is down to individual choice, and as you say Gary we probably run greater risks walking down the road.. or on our way to do some bushcraft... and I'm just wondering whether finding your self on a mountain-side with just your underpants and a toothpick might lead to a diagnosis of Alzheimer's Disease?
):
Having been a scientist i have to disagree to a large extent and say that experience IS far better than scientific theory. You get half a dozen different research scientists together and very few will agree with each other on anything as their own pet theory is the only viable one. I'm not dissing your view, just stating my own, from my own experience.
You get a dozen peopel like my sister and her husband who are both psyhiatric nurses dealign with the elderly with my brother-in-law dealing exclusively with Alzeimers, and they will all generally agree on the best form of treatment or hadnling the patients FROM EXPERIENCE. Scientific theory is great, but is the practice that makes the difference. Exactly with Gary's point about it being easy in theory to build a quinzee but when you have to do it in a blizzard half way up a fjord, there's one hell of a big difference.
I knwo I'm a self confessed cynic but I'd take the experience of someone who's actually done something than the theory of someone who's only read a book/surfed a link...
If my life's gonna potentially rely on knowledge, I'll take the "I've done it for real" guy with me rather than the "I've read a really good book on it" guy. EVERY TIME!!!
You get a dozen peopel like my sister and her husband who are both psyhiatric nurses dealign with the elderly with my brother-in-law dealing exclusively with Alzeimers, and they will all generally agree on the best form of treatment or hadnling the patients FROM EXPERIENCE. Scientific theory is great, but is the practice that makes the difference. Exactly with Gary's point about it being easy in theory to build a quinzee but when you have to do it in a blizzard half way up a fjord, there's one hell of a big difference.
I knwo I'm a self confessed cynic but I'd take the experience of someone who's actually done something than the theory of someone who's only read a book/surfed a link...
If my life's gonna potentially rely on knowledge, I'll take the "I've done it for real" guy with me rather than the "I've read a really good book on it" guy. EVERY TIME!!!
Justin Time said:How any of us use this information is down to individual choice, and as you say Gary we probably run greater risks walking down the road.. or on our way to do some bushcraft... and I'm just wondering whether finding your self on a mountain-side with just your underpants and a toothpick might lead to a diagnosis of Alzheimer's Disease?
Now where did I leave that tooth pick!
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