air rifles; .177 or .22?

[HillBill]

I read a book last year about hunting with air rifles (can't remember which one but if you look it up on Amazon it is the most well known one) and the author was a big .177 fan (apart from when ratting at close range). Reason being greater accuracy, which is the key consideration for humane hunting and this outweighed the greater energy (trauma) delivered by the .22.

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A .177 isnt more accurate than a .22, its just takes the range estimation out of the equation out to about 40 yards, hence its easier to shoot. I can one hole group both calibres at the same ranges. All modern guns are as accurate as each other. If the bloke in the book really believes its more accurate then he shouldnt be writing a book.

More forgiving to shoot..... yes
More accurate......definately not.

 

[Dozza]

Well it's what you say really - flatter trajectory so less room for error. Made sense to me though and I would go along with what he said.

 

[FGYT]

only over penatration problems i have had with 177 is small rats at very close range


the only time i have rabbits move a distance after a clean head shot is on small baby rabbits (yes i do shoot them but only on a pure pest control job) they have massive nervouse reactions and can flip and twitch many yards one examined to check was totally dead as the pellet had removed the entire brain out the exit hole range was 20yrds

this movement reduces the bigger the rabbit is normal for pot size and bigger usally jump up once hit the ground and a few leg kicks End EX

i always head shot and make sure they are suitable distance from the burrow if shooting little ones (as i said for a pest control job every thing gets shot)


177 isnt the automatic of the pellet world its the F1 car

i use 8.4grain pellets AA 4.52 but i also hunt mostly in the ranges longer than most (we wont get into teh at argumnet)

on 22 a 22grain pellet is way to heavy and unnessicery at 12ft lbs these where developed for the FAC guns which destroyed normal pellets but sold to hunters of non FAC on the basis that heavy is good

eley wasp the std of 22 pellets for decades etc is 14grains which is about right for a 12ft lb rifle

.177" 8.4grain fired at 12ft lbs 810fps will still be carrying enough energy at 100yrds to be considered leathal to a rabbit so there is no argument on power at normal airgun ranges

either cal is fine just Learn it and use it well

ATB

Duncan

 

[Adze]

on 22 a 22grain pellet is way to heavy and unnessicery at 12ft lbs these where developed for the FAC guns which destroyed normal pellets but sold to hunters of non FAC on the basis that heavy is good

That's an oversimplification and makes the assumption that only heavy pellets were used for all shooting. This was not the case. The very heavy pellets were used at ranges of up to 15 yards for rat shooting only. At these ranges the trajectory isn't noticeably different to lighter, faster pellets. The effective impact energy is dramatically improved though, provided no residual energy is left in the pellet by it exiting the other side.

Killing ability is a function of the amount of kinetic energy delivered to the target - residual energy in the pellet after exit is not delivered to the target.

Penetration is a comlex function of velocity, momentum and the behaviour of the protectile on impact. Since a 12ftlb airgun barely has enough energy to mushroom a waisted diabolo pellet, at range, when fired into a hard target, it's a shoe in that the effects of impact on the projectile are less when the target is a non-resilient object.

.177" 8.4grain fired at 12ft lbs 810fps will still be carrying enough energy at 100yrds to be considered leathal to a rabbit so there is no argument on power at normal airgun ranges

I disagree.

http://www.velocitypress.com/air_rifle_ballistics.shtml

Granted it's in .20, but an 8.65 grain pellet with an initial muzzle velocity of nearly 1000fps (compared with only 810) has decelerated to zero (EDIT: No it hasn't - its 300fps - or approx 1.7ftlbs - thanks jonnie drake) by 74 yards. A .177 with the same mass still being lethal at 100 yards? Can you prove that?

either cal is fine just Learn it and use it well

Absolutely! It's not for nothing that the cliché is "a miss is as good as a mile"

 

[jonnie drake]

great stuff guys, keep all the comments coming I am learning more with every post. I have only had a go with a friends .22, I am considering getting one myself hence the questions. thanks all

adze don't mean to be argumentative, but on your graph the 8.65grns had dropped to 300ft/sec at 74yds not 0ft/sec

 

[Everything Mac]

Ive had about a dozen rifles in the last 6 years, from a TX to a daystate mk3, theo S type, mfr various others inbetween, only had .177 and .22 though.

In .177 i had a Logun mk 2, an MFR, a Skan R32 and a BSA hornet. Its not one gun i have had mate, same results with all. Over penetration happens mainly below 25 yards, i have shot rabbits in the head and watched them run 50 yards before dropping, clean head shots. Its a common problem with .177, take a look on the airgun forums, do a search there is plenty discussion about it. Folk started buying .177 more when HFT took off as .22 was harder to do well with because of the loopier trajectory. The overall standard of shooting drops when folk take up the easy option, give a .177 user a .22 and they will struggle, That does not work both ways as a good .22 shooter will be a great .177 shooter.

Its like cars. Automatic or manual? easy not much work option, or more difficult but more rewarding option.

I've shot for many years V both as sport and profession i'm not exactly inexperienced mate.

i believe you and I had this argument some months ago. we settled on the fact that you hunt at generally shorter ranges than me - IIRC. ie sub 25yrds where as I take shots from 30 - 45 yards.

I believe we agreed that over penetration at sub 25yrds was a given when using .177

.177 is just as effective as a .22 - as has been said many times - a .177 will kill bunnies. end of.

if over penetration is a problem then do not take sub 25yrd shots. go for 30yrds or more.

andy

 

[Adze]

adze don't mean to be argumentative, but on your graph the 8.65grns had dropped to 300ft/sec at 74yds not 0ft/sec

Oops... that'll teach me to be a smarty pants. Thanks for pointing that out, I'll correct it. It still equates to 1.7ftlbs... or about the same as the muzzle energy of a GAT pistol. Harsh language would be almost as effective

 

[HillBill]

i believe you and I had this argument some months ago. we settled on the fact that you hunt at generally shorter ranges than me - IIRC. ie sub 25yrds where as I take shots from 30 - 45 yards.

I believe we agreed that over penetration at sub 25yrds was a given when using .177

.177 is just as effective as a .22 - as has been said many times - a .177 will kill bunnies. end of.

if over penetration is a problem then do not take sub 25yrd shots. go for 30yrds or more.

andy

The fun for me is the stalk, many of my shots were taken within 25 yards, closer more often than not.

I can sit back at 40 with a .22 with just the same success rate as with .177. The way i see it, if you can range find well then a .22 is easy to shoot, All things being equal other than the pellet the .22 will be more effective at all ranges. Its heavier and maintains more down range energy due to mass/momentum

Nothing wrong with .177 at all though. It does the job ok.

 

[jonnie drake]

great stuff guys. Any body know why I can't register on airgunbbs?

 

[HillBill]

great stuff guys. Any body know why I can't register on airgunbbs?

What email addy you got? They dont accept things like yahoo/hotmail etc, they dont like disposable ones unfortunately.

 

[FGYT]

That's an oversimplification and makes the assumption that only heavy pellets were used for all shooting. This was not the case. The very heavy pellets were used at ranges of up to 15 yards for rat shooting only..

Killing ability is a function of the amount of kinetic energy delivered to the target - residual energy in the pellet after exit is not delivered to the target.

Penetration is a comlex function of velocity, momentum and the behaviour of the protectile on impact. Since a 12ftlb airgun barely has enough energy to mushroom a waisted diabolo pellet, at range, when fired into a hard target, it's a shoe in that the effects of impact on the projectile are less when the target is a non-resilient object.



I disagree.

Granted it's in .20, but an 8.65 grain pellet with an initial muzzle velocity of nearly 1000fps (compared with only 810) has decelerated to zero (EDIT: No it hasn't - its 300fps - or approx 1.7ftlbs - thanks jonnie drake) by 74 yards. A .177 with the same mass still being lethal at 100 yards? Can you prove that?

most people rattin back befroe hevy pellets became fashionable used flat heads which are fairly light and do mushroom to a samll degree but also stop quickly due teo thw treminal balistics they are howerver rubbish at any longer ranges and slow very quickly

yes energy imparted is only delivered to the max if the projectile stops and pellets done really mushroom much and arnt going fast enough to cavitate they may tumble a bit however the relative size of a pellet to a rabbit brain is quite large so eitehr even passing right throu will do enough damage

a 8.8grains is a very very light 5mm pellet (ideal IMO is 11grains ) so might even be a flat head (cant think of any in that weight range of the top of my head as its been a long time since i researched the .20"cal stuff and stopped when i found the idea pellet for my set up) and does have significanly more cross sectional area than a 4.5mm at the same weight balistic coeffecent of the pellet is important if it is a flat head etc that an the light weight/CSA will make it act like a shuttle cock regardless of how hard you push it initally

even in a 22 a flat head will slow massivlley before 25yrds

ATB

Duncan

on another note how you set up your scope / aiming system can make shooting easier at various ranges by reducing the rangefinding error
this doens mean you need to know your trajectories

 

[jonnie drake]

didnt even get that far! just clicked on the register button at the top of the home page, it opens up a new page saying this function has been disabled. What sort of email address would I need? I've only got msn email at the min.

cheers

 

[HillBill]

didnt even get that far! just clicked on the register button at the top of the home page, it opens up a new page saying this function has been disabled. What sort of email address would I need? I've only got msn email at the min.

cheers

Not sure mate, i had to use my parents NTLworld one back then.

There are other forums though
Try the airgun forum

 

[jonnie drake]

cheers hillbill

 

[Everything Mac]

most people rattin back befroe hevy pellets became fashionable used flat heads which are fairly light and do mushroom to a samll degree but also stop quickly due teo thw treminal balistics they are howerver rubbish at any longer ranges and slow very quickly

yes energy imparted is only delivered to the max if the projectile stops and pellets done really mushroom much and arnt going fast enough to cavitate they may tumble a bit however the relative size of a pellet to a rabbit brain is quite large so eitehr even passing right throu will do enough damage

a 8.8grains is a very very light 5mm pellet (ideal IMO is 11grains ) so might even be a flat head (cant think of any in that weight range of the top of my head as its been a long time since i researched the .20"cal stuff and stopped when i found the idea pellet for my set up) and does have significanly more cross sectional area than a 4.5mm at the same weight balistic coeffecent of the pellet is important if it is a flat head etc that an the light weight/CSA will make it act like a shuttle cock regardless of how hard you push it initally

even in a 22 a flat head will slow massivlley before 25yrds

ATB

Duncan

on another note how you set up your scope / aiming system can make shooting easier at various ranges by reducing the rangefinding error
this doens mean you need to know your trajectories

duncan are you drunk? more spelling mistakes in there than I care to shake a stick at.

 

[jonnie drake]

I think Im going to go for a .177, thanks for all the info folks. I've had a good long search on the net and it looks like something from the bsa stable. I was thinking something like a meteor would fit the bill for a first air rifle, would this be a good choice?

 

[dorkingbushcraft]

.177 has a flatter trajectory which makes long(er) shots easier.

Both are capable of dropping bunnies at legal power limits.

Scout's (for some reason unknown to me!) restrict shotting to .177

Simon

not at my troop we use semis, weblys all sorts
i think we only use one .177

 

[Siberianfury]

I think Im going to go for a .177, thanks for all the info folks. I've had a good long search on the net and it looks like something from the bsa stable. I was thinking something like a meteor would fit the bill for a first air rifle, would this be a good choice?

get a BSA lightning, my first proper air rifle, brilliant build quality, great accuracy and consistency, i like mine so much i doubt i will get another for a long time.
perfect for my requirements.

 

[jonnie drake]

cheers SF, I've had a lot of reccomendations for a lightning, and there are a lot of em' going cheap S/H. Will have to consult the bank manager!!!

 

[FGYT]

not at my troop we use semis, weblys all sorts
i think we only use one .177

http://scouts.org.uk/documents/por/2010_updates/Chap09Jan10.pdf

page 11 top left

only .177" (4.5mm) or smaller and dome heads etc

ATB

Duncan