Advice: Antler scales for Viking Seax

[tombear]

If you look at a lot of excavated seax ( and being a very sad man I have ) a lot of the tangs on seax are a sort of half way house between stick and full tangs, almost like taperred tongues , much thicker than a stick and probably no more than half the length of what the handle was.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vik...ia/File:British_Museum_Sittingbourne_Seax.jpg

Personally i'd cut the tang down to about 2/3rds off what it is and slowly grind of better still file if into a fat spike taking it in less than a quarter of a inch from the cutting edge and back. It's easy enough to drill into whatever section of the antler you like to match the taper of the tongue and saw and file it to fit. I've found it useful to file a pad saw blade into a thin spike for this.

Never known them found with liners myself, but with the opened grained nature of the core of the antler I suggest a horn collar/ spacer between the blade and the handle or plenty of pitch glue ( easily smoothed down with a hot knife ). A horn ( or iron or brass or owt really) collar would be a lot stronger than the thin lip/ start of the taper in the antler and is about as easy to work into a good fit as the sort of hard plastic model kits are made from. Looks pretty as well! Stops the grain getting dirty especially if it's used for butchering, not that I ever have, just cleared brush with it and chopped kindling.

Theres a lot of conflicting guesswork written about seax, about the fancy decorated ones being actually for hunting. Personally I think most were made for dual use, as a machete you could also stab with from behind a shield with.

best of luck with it!

ATB

Tom

 

[Dreadhead]

If you look at a lot of excavated seax ( and being a very sad man I have ) a lot of the tangs on seax are a sort of half way house between stick and full tangs, almost like taperred tongues , much thicker than a stick and probably no more than half the length of what the handle was.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vik...ia/File:British_Museum_Sittingbourne_Seax.jpg

Personally i'd cut the tang down to about 2/3rds off what it is and slowly grind of better still file if into a fat spike taking it in less than a quarter of a inch from the cutting edge and back. It's easy enough to drill into whatever section of the antler you like to match the taper of the tongue and saw and file it to fit. I've found it useful to file a pad saw blade into a thin spike for this.

Never known them found with liners myself, but with the opened grained nature of the core of the antler I suggest a horn collar/ spacer between the blade and the handle or plenty of pitch glue ( easily smoothed down with a hot knife ). A horn ( or iron or brass or owt really) collar would be a lot stronger than the thin lip/ start of the taper in the antler and is about as easy to work into a good fit as the sort of hard plastic model kits are made from. Looks pretty as well! Stops the grain getting dirty especially if it's used for butchering, not that I ever have, just cleared brush with it and chopped kindling.

Theres a lot of conflicting guesswork written about seax, about the fancy decorated ones being actually for hunting. Personally I think most were made for dual use, as a machete you could also stab with from behind a shield with.

best of luck with it!

ATB

Tom

Hi Tom,

I was hoping you would comment I do see what you mean about the tang shapes. Though it may not be much work for some, that would be quite a bit of me as I don't have any grinders or files etc. Half of me wants an authentic styled seax, and the other half wants to play around with the full tang knowing that it will take more abuse. I think I'm going to leave the tang as it is on this one, and then get a smaller seax for general small camp duties and make that one authentic which will be satisfying. I also agree that I wont bother with any liners. Cheers for the advice, when I get round to sourcing a smaller seax blade I'll be bending your ear for ideas then

Morning, Hamish,

Personally I'd leave the handle at the length it is now. Historically the seax did have a much longer handle than could be reasonably accommodated by the average hand, probably something to do with extra reach. If you split one of your antler pieces and then file the resulting flat area until its roughly the same width as the tang, you can then epoxy it straight on to the tang. Only do one side first, let it set and then drill the rivet holes. Then attach the second scale, let it set and then drill through the first holes into the second side. If you countersink the holes you'll have a recess for the saddlery rivets to sit in. Cut the end cap of the rivets and peen the end to capture the washer then insert in the handle. Peen the other end the same trying to avoid the antler. Antler is pretty tough stuff, but it will chip! When everything has settled down, you can sand the antler to fit the tang. Keep the resulting antler dust for gap filling if required. Just mix some epoxy and add antler dust to it to fill any gaps between tang and grip. Allow to cure and sand down as before.

Personally, I'd avoid copper or brass liners unless they were well drilled to allow for the epoxy to get a good grip.

That's a great looking blade, Hamish, looking forward to seeing it finished!

I was also hoping you would comment mate as I love your style, I think that's what has been in the back of my head for inspiration. I already had the antler and copper rivets set aside, and what you have suggested is just the advice I needed for this method. I like the idea of recessing the rivets, what's the best way to get that done spot on? drill the rivet holes, then switch to a flat headed drill bit and follow the same hole down a few MM? I'm guessing the recess only needs to be 2/3mm deep?


Thanks for everyones input. Conflicting methods and styles for this especially as it is a historical blade style. But I want to try out the full tang for this so not too fussed about the authenticity. I'll get a wee seax for that. Looking forward to getting stuck into this one soon

 

[neoaliphant]

Just remembered an incident when a fighting seax blade flew out of its handle at a show once, the problem with stick tangs, also a lot of the handles were also tapered towards the bottom on reenactors seaxes which made them very dangerous in my mind.

 

[juttle]

Hi, Hamish,

What I do is slightly countersink the holes just enough to take the copper washers. Then everything "sort of" sorts itself out during the finishing process. Your idea of using an oversize drill it would work fine, but would need a degree of accuracy, and as you know, I don't do accurate!

 

[Dreadhead]

Hi, Hamish,

What I do is slightly countersink the holes just enough to take the copper washers. Then everything "sort of" sorts itself out during the finishing process. Your idea of using an oversize drill it would work fine, but would need a degree of accuracy, and as you know, I don't do accurate!

aye, that's the only way I could think to countersink the holes enough for the washers to fit in, by using a bigger drill bit but only going down deep enough for the washers to fit in. I think we are on the same page, it's just a difficult one to explain as I don't understand how you might do it without that method, unless you countersink the holes for the washers by hand or something? I'm a little confused there

 

[MartiniDave]

You can get a countersink bit with a handle on it - intended for de-burring holes - that might be the way to go, a bit at a time. Antler is pretty soft so doing it under power might lead to a re-make situation, if you follow me.

Dave

 

[juttle]

+1 to that! If you're trying to keep it truly rustic, I've had success with a small piece of flint. Basically, you need to make a short arrow. Use the shaft to spin the Flint lightly in the pinholes and, as long as it's sharp, you'll get a countersink. The finish will also be pretty good as long as you don't go too hard at it. Seeing as you're probably going to use this "drill" just the once it would probably work with any sharp flake of stone.

Proper do it yourself!

 

[Tengu]

To fill the voids the the antler cheap superglue is used.

I wonder if they had a runny penetrative equivalent?

I found a Victorian antler walking stick handle...cleaning it out I discovered that water trickled right though the voids...so presumably it would also find its way in and rot the wood?

 

[Dreadhead]

You can get a countersink bit with a handle on it - intended for de-burring holes - that might be the way to go, a bit at a time. Antler is pretty soft so doing it under power might lead to a re-make situation, if you follow me.

Dave

+1 to that! If you're trying to keep it truly rustic, I've had success with a small piece of flint. Basically, you need to make a short arrow. Use the shaft to spin the Flint lightly in the pinholes and, as long as it's sharp, you'll get a countersink. The finish will also be pretty good as long as you don't go too hard at it. Seeing as you're probably going to use this "drill" just the once it would probably work with any sharp flake of stone.

Proper do it yourself!

riiiight i'm with you fellas so I'll either need to buy a wee countersink or make one from stone or somesuch. I'll see what I can come up with

 

[bushwacker bob]

You will need to used a milling bit to drill a deeper hole for the washer as a countersink will make a hole with sloping sides. You'll need the washer to sit flat in the recess you bore for it.
https://www.shop-apt.co.uk/carbide-...4DuGK1HJyHTgNx5-suzfehQv8-GvdQRvs4aAlq_8P8HAQ

 

[forestwalker]

Glue made from animal parts ( hoofs, skin, fish parts) is incredibly strong. All old furniture has been assembled this eay, and lasted for generations.

But generally the design of the furniture was such that the glue was not load-bearing. I've looked some at Swedish 1700-s furniture, and the one place I can recall where glue was the only thing holding something in place was small moldings and such.

Other than that I agree.

 

[forestwalker]

I would say all furniture pre 1930 or so. No, those glues were used worldwide, even in Brigandia!
They are still used by proper furniture restorers today.

One reason for this is that the glue is weaker than the wood (as opposed to modern glues that are stronger). That means that when the join breaks it is easy to reglue, Also, if a part breaks you can disassemble and replace the broken part. Modern glues often are strong enough that in a break you find intact glue with pieces of wood stuck to it, Also, the PVA glues do not glue to themselves, making repairs difficult. Ever tried regluing something that had been glued with modern wood-glue and found that it did not hold? Now you know why.

 

[Dave Budd]

For goodness sakes people, stick tangs are not inferior to full tangs when done correctly and the type of glue is less important than with full tangs!

Almost every single heavy duty hacking or chopping tool and weapon through history and all over the word is a stick tang. As mentioned, for most of that time the glues were much inferior to what we have now. I've got several knives that I use a lot when managing the woods (ie not just cutting feather sticks!) that are all held together with nothing more than hide glue. I've never had one fail on me, which is why I use them myself as a test.

Hamish, if I were your authenticity officer and you came along doing living history with a full tang knife (unless it were correct, such as some Roman ones ), I wouldn't let it out in view of the public. Showing farbisms like that is what leads to false histories and people thinking that Vikings had horns on their helmets!

 

[juttle]

Agreed, Dave, stick tangs are in no way inferior to full tangs and for true authenticity this seax should have a stick tang. Hamish, however, is working with a full tang seax, not authentic, I agree, but that's what he's got! Without a lot of cutting, grinding and possibly welding to get round the existing holes this seax will remain a full tang.

It is what it is!

 

[tombear]

Ok sorry to sidetrack this thread even more but for a hell of a long time it was the norm to burn a tang into the handle, no glue at all used. I've never had the b@lls to try it myself but looking at books on tool making from as late as the 60s it was the norm to do it that way with stick tangs on knives, chisels etc.

The only stick tangs I've personally seen broken were ridiculously thin, broke were they met the blade and were being missused. I can't imagine any tang that starts off wide and then tapers down being more likely to break on the tang than on the blade were the load / abuse will happen. I suppose the attraction of a thin tang us that it's easier to drill a pilot hole for and bang it on with little risk of splitting the handle and a wide tapering tang needs more farting about.

Anyroad to return to what Dreadhead wants to do, slabs on a full tang has anyone suggested binding the antler on? Carve the ends down a bit to the depth of the binding material at each end, bind on with something that will shrink when wet and dried and then impregnate the bindings with something that would waterproof them so they wouldn't loosen off?

ATB

Tom

 

[MartiniDave]

Burning in was exactly the way I was trained to fit handles to files as an apprentice instrument maker. It works well enough and certainly creates an atmosphere in the workshop!

Dave

 

[Zingmo]

...farbisms ...!

My word of the day! :AR15firin:viking:

Z

 

[Dreadhead]

haha I love the debate this thread has started!

First up, thanks for correcting me on the stick/full tang strength comparisons. I've currently got Ruud and Lisa staying over and he's been giving me a sharpening course and we have been discussing it and I've made a decision. I'm going to keep the full tang on this as I wanted a relatively simple project to work on without all the grinding etc for the tang. Also because the antler I have for the handle is way too chunky for a stick tang style, so keeping it full tang means i can cut the antler down from the inside giving me some nice scales. I'll simply just keep it as a modern knife and not use it for ren events. Then when I'm a bit more flush or land myself a good trade, I'll get a proper stick tang seax for the ren stuff. That way I get to have my first try at doing a full tang handle, and will end up with even more sharp pointy things which is always good fun

 

[Dave Budd]

good plan

In that case, I would saw the antler down the middle and if it needs bending flat (if the antler is too bent) then I would boil it until soft and then clamp between boards until hard again. Then flatten the antler with abrasive on a board (or belt grinder in my case) and if the tang isn't flat then I would use a bit of leather as a spacer to take up the gaps. Use slow setting epoxy for glue and then either just rods of brass for pins and pein the ends over to look nice (but I' do that after the glue is all set), or just file flush and sand smooth with the surface of the antler, depending on the texture of it.

If you want properly authentic seax blades, just let me know mate

 

[Dreadhead]

good plan

In that case, I would saw the antler down the middle and if it needs bending flat (if the antler is too bent) then I would boil it until soft and then clamp between boards until hard again. Then flatten the antler with abrasive on a board (or belt grinder in my case) and if the tang isn't flat then I would use a bit of leather as a spacer to take up the gaps. Use slow setting epoxy for glue and then either just rods of brass for pins and pein the ends over to look nice (but I' do that after the glue is all set), or just file flush and sand smooth with the surface of the antler, depending on the texture of it.

If you want properly authentic seax blades, just let me know mate

Less hassle this way and I'll end up with more blades in the end so happy days

I was planning on keeping the handle still a bit chunky so was going to cut some scales maybe around a full 10-15mm thick each side which would mean a lot of the rough grainy stuff on the inside towards the steel. Is that going to be ok with epoxy and whatnot? I don't know why i'm asking so many questions i usually go go ahead and learn by doing or botching then doing again. I'll order some slow setting epoxy like you suggest, and see how I get on

I'm always eyeing up your seax blades on here, and your leatherworking tools, birthday and xmas are coming up so might get lucky!