£300 plus knife ? ?

[0000]

Hi,
Correct me if I am wrong, but this reads to me as if you are being very critical of using a belt grinder for sharpening, that you think this is a sign of incompetence or worse, that you are horrified that Alan Wood would do such a heinous thing. That makers might do this makes you doubtful about the quality of hand made knives across the board. Further, that if one wants to know about knives, their manufacture, use and maintenance, one is better talking to a toolmaker than a knife maker.

Is that how it should have been read?

Cheers

Chris

I was wondering myself. Also the point about Swedish knives getting better edges the more you sharpen them as if it were common knowledge. My knives aren't sharpened with belts but I've done it before and know of fellow professional knife makers that exclusively do this with no detrimental effects. The only issue from a metallurgical perspective would be heat generated if you were running a fine belt to fast. Most makers I know, myself included, run very accurate speed controls of various types.

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[C_Claycomb]

I read "Swiss" knives, and took it to mean Swiss Army. My experience has been they start with an obtuse edge, which eventually is reduced to a useful angle....but nothing ever fixes the overly soft steel.

While I know that it does not have to be the case, the belt linishers I have seen in UK engineering have all had several things in common, they have been guarded up the wazoo...must be a royal PITA to change the belts, the belts are pretty coarse, nothing finer than 120 or Scotchbrite, and look like they have been there a long time. By comparison, knife maker grinders have almost no guarding, belt change is fast and easy, belts are used all the way down to 800 or 1000 grit. When tool makers want a good finish, they also tend to want precision flatness and exact dimensional control, therefore their linishers get used for fairly rough work. Clearly though, Norton and 3M don't make their very fine engineered abrasive belts just for knife makers...they are used for fine engineering, but I don't think they are widely seen, otherwise the disparaging view of linishers being mere coarse tools would not be so prevalent.

 

[0000]

Yes I worked on oil rigs for about 10 years and I've been in machine shops on and offshore. I agree that the belt grinders used in that kind of environment have been pretty job specific with regards to their setup. From what I've seen, usually just as a quick deburring tool or to make quick clean "flat" areas for welding. I'm still not sure how any of that, since it has nothing to do with knife making, results in someone "having horrors at the quality and workmanship". It's like saying that you can't see a four wheeled vehicle having any finesse because you once saw a lorry. In any case, if this was an issue for customers then the makers who do sharpen this way wouldn't be in business long. The market would decide.

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[0000]

I read "Swiss" knives, and took it to mean Swiss Army. My experience has been they start with an obtuse edge, which eventually is reduced to a useful angle....but nothing ever fixes the overly soft steel.

While I know that it does not have to be the case, the belt linishers I have seen in UK engineering have all had several things in common, they have been guarded up the wazoo...must be a royal PITA to change the belts, the belts are pretty coarse, nothing finer than 120 or Scotchbrite, and look like they have been there a long time. By comparison, knife maker grinders have almost no guarding, belt change is fast and easy, belts are used all the way down to 800 or 1000 grit. When tool makers want a good finish, they also tend to want precision flatness and exact dimensional control, therefore their linishers get used for fairly rough work. Clearly though, Norton and 3M don't make their very fine engineered abrasive belts just for knife makers...they are used for fine engineering, but I don't think they are widely seen, otherwise the disparaging view of linishers being mere coarse tools would not be so prevalent.

You're right it was Swiss. Brain fart by me.

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[ToddG]

Hi all!
I have more knives than is really good for me but. The ones in the 300+ range are folders. My primary bushcraft/wilderness survival knives are in the 150usd range. One is a DPx gear that is built like a tank, the other is by a us maker named KT Wright. I had some one rehandle it in morta for me. I use both hard, that is why I got them, because they could survive. I “personally” don’t see the need to spend 300+. But......I will admit they my grail is a wood lore......and I know I would be spending a pile on that

 

[0000]

Hi all!
I have more knives than is really good for me but. The ones in the 300+ range are folders. My primary bushcraft/wilderness survival knives are in the 150usd range. One is a DPx gear that is built like a tank, the other is by a us maker named KT Wright. I had some one rehandle it in morta for me. I use both hard, that is why I got them, because they could survive. I “personally” don’t see the need to spend 300+. But......I will admit they my grail is a wood lore......and I know I would be spending a pile on that

Cool. Do you mean LT Wright? I've never heard of KT.

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[ToddG]

Cool. Do you mean LT Wright? I've never heard of KT.

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Yes, sorry! Cell phone post.
LT Wright....mine is the GNS in O2. Would post a pic but I can’t seem to with my account
not that I can spell anyway

 

[0000]

Yes, sorry! Cell phone post.
LT Wright....mine is the GNS in O2. Would post a pic but I can’t seem to with my account
not that I can spell anyway

Yeah I've seen it a bunch of times. His knives are really popular. I like the no nonsense look of them. I think his kephart model looks cool. I'm not one for the spelling either!

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[ToddG]

Yeah I've seen it a bunch of times. His knives are really popular. I like the no nonsense look of them. I think his kephart model looks cool. I'm not one for the spelling either!

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I had one of those. Liked it but sold it recently. It just never made it into the rotation. My only issue with it is that with the micarta handles it’s a very heavy knife, for me, the balance was just not right. I do a lot of carving, spoons, and this would not have made a good working knife for me. The fit and finish was fantastic though.

 

[z_bumbi]

its still only half or a third of what a lot of people pay for a smartphone. Allthough the number of people that baton with there phone is pretty low its still gone in five years but I have knives my grandparents owned and used and in one case even made. So 300 for a good knive can be pretty cheap in the long rum. I can't aford either just now but if one can afford it go for it.

 

[petrochemicals]

Hi,
Correct me if I am wrong, but this reads to me as if you are being very critical of using a belt grinder for sharpening, that you think this is a sign of incompetence or worse, that you are horrified that Alan Wood would do such a heinous thing. That makers might do this makes you doubtful about the quality of hand made knives across the board. Further, that if one wants to know about knives, their manufacture, use and maintenance, one is better talking to a toolmaker than a knife maker.

Is that how it should have been read?

Cheers

Chris

Yes chris, I think itzs asign of laziness and abuse. A knife maker makes a knife, primarily for cutting wood, ropes etc, a tool maker can make tools, including knives that punch holes in other metal many many times before they are sharpened. Believe it or not there whas a group of people who discovered making metal objects before you and I where born, there is a small but loyal following of the craft of metallurgy. Belt sanders or linishers are a modern advent, whilst convenient are not ideal for precise work. As for knives across the board, I believe some companies are committed to cold sharpening. Sharpening any thin edge forces the heat to the extremities which is why corners are always the first to blue.

 

[C_Claycomb]

I could try to address every piece of bad information or faulty logic in your post, but I have better things to do, and it would not change your clearly entrenched view. I don't know how you have managed to acquire these views in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, but I doubt there is anything anyone here can say that is likely to change them now.

Just for fun though...What is "cold sharpening"? As opposed to "hot sharpening"?

Some well known companies showing how they sharpen their knives. While you may hold on to your opinion, the fact is that knives made as shown are sold at all price points, win industry awards for quality, and loyal support from customers.

TOPS. 7:13

Buck. 4:47

Spyderco. 7:37

Mora 1:00

Bark River. 11:12

Helle. 3:23
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hadgpin6LSU

Chris Reeve. 8:44
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nj6p8p6vfZQ

For more fun, go on one of the US knife forums and post your thoughts. Lots of full time makers and blade smiths....many who are much older than I am

 

[0000]

Yes chris, I think itzs asign of laziness and abuse. A knife maker makes a knife, primarily for cutting wood, ropes etc, a tool maker can make tools, including knives that punch holes in other metal many many times before they are sharpened. Believe it or not there whas a group of people who discovered making metal objects before you and I where born, there is a small but loyal following of the craft of metallurgy. Belt sanders or linishers are a modern advent, whilst convenient are not ideal for precise work. As for knives across the board, I believe some companies are committed to cold sharpening. Sharpening any thin edge forces the heat to the extremities which is why corners are always the first to blue.

Do you think that a "tool maker" could make a better knife than a knife maker? Being that a knife is a tool and a knife maker specializes in this specifically? If a knife is, as you say made for cutting wood and rope then it would be designed and produced with these applications in mind. If one wanted a knife that could "punch holes in other metals many many times" then it wouldn't be as effective when put to these tasks. The geometries and properties from the heat treatment would need to be different but wouldn't require a different skill set to achieve. As I say, a belt grinder isn't how I sharpen but it isn't lazy and takes a good deal of skill to create a nice consistent edge this way. Also as I already said, you can slow your belt right down and generate no heat whatsoever and so not get remotely close to the temperatures required to effect the achived temper. It is certainly not "abuse". I think you may want to give knife makers a bit more credit and consider that they know their craft. If you're interested in metallurgy with regards to knife making, I suggest that you have a look at the writings of Larrin Thomas who's father is a famous Damascus and knife maker. He himself is a lettered metallurgist and has "invented" a few knife specific steels and I've had a few conversations with him regarding steels and myths of knife making techniques.

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[0000]

I could try to address every piece of bad information or faulty logic in your post, but I have better things to do, and it would not change your clearly entrenched view. I don't know how you have managed to acquire these views in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, but I doubt there is anything anyone here can say that is likely to change them now.

Just for fun though...What is "cold sharpening"? As opposed to "hot sharpening"?

Some well known companies showing how they sharpen their knives. While you may hold on to your opinion, the fact is that knives made as shown are sold at all price points, win industry awards for quality, and loyal support from customers.

TOPS. 7:13

Buck. 4:47

Spyderco. 7:37

Mora 1:00

Bark River. 11:12

Helle. 3:23
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hadgpin6LSU

Chris Reeve. 8:44
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nj6p8p6vfZQ

For more fun, go on one of the US knife forums and post your thoughts. Lots of full time makers and blade smiths....many who are much older than I am

I have in my time owned knives from all of these factories. The only one that had a ruined temper was a bark river bush Seax. The grind was even uneven. I was really disappointed but since the vast majority of their customers rave about them, I assume that I just got a lemon.

I have a crk small sebenza 21 that I love but the steel is really really soft. In his defence, he plainly states that it is and is intended to be this way for ease of sharpening.

Edit: I didn't see Tops in there. I've never owned anything from them.

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[Billy-o]

Sharpening any thin edge forces the heat to the extremities which is why corners are always the first to blue.

My dad used to differentially heat treat the knives he made (not a huge number, its true) by heating only the spine. Did at least one on the gas cooker, he told me. Tempered it in the oven.

 

[TLM]

Sharpening any thin edge forces the heat to the extremities which is why corners are always the first to blue

One can simply say no. Heat is generated by the the abrasion at that point, thin parts tend to heat because there is less metal to conduct the heat away. One of the reasons why some people use stones to sharpen knives is that water can be used for cooling and keeping the stone from being clogged.

 

[Broch]

OK, being devil's advocate here, in Chris' first video the sharpening is done on a belt moving quite fast and producing a lot of sparks. Correct me if I'm wrong but a spark generated from steel is usually in the order of 400 degrees C - so what temperature did the edge get to on the belt and, consequently, what was the tempered hardness (as we know, tempering temperature for 0,1 as an example, is 200C for 60HRC to 320C for 55HRC). It is then polished - did that polishing take away the small edge that got too hot?

As a Royal Ordnance Factory craft apprentice in the seventies I would have been sacked if I had carried out any dry 'grind' operation after a component had been given its final heat treatment. However, the abrasive surfaces available now on dry belts are vastly better than we had then but I do still worry when sparks are produced; I don't believe the temperature is any lower.

It is theoretically possible that a knife made in this way will result in a softer cutting edge and that the blade will improve after that soft edge has been removed by manual sharpening - just saying, it's possible.

 

[0000]

OK, being devil's advocate here, in Chris' first video the sharpening is done on a belt moving quite fast and producing a lot of sparks. Correct me if I'm wrong but a spark generated from steel is usually in the order of 400 degrees C - so what temperature did the edge get to on the belt and, consequently, what was the tempered hardness (as we know, tempering temperature for 0,1 as an example, is 200C for 60HRC to 320C for 55HRC). It is then polished - did that polishing take away the small edge that got too hot?

As a Royal Ordnance Factory craft apprentice in the seventies I would have been sacked if I had carried out any dry 'grind' operation after a component had been given its final heat treatment. However, the abrasive surfaces available now on dry belts are vastly better than we had then but I do still worry when sparks are produced; I don't believe the temperature is any lower.

It is theoretically possible that a knife made in this way will result in a softer cutting edge and that the blade will improve after that soft edge has been removed by manual sharpening - just saying, it's possible.

I also think that belt looked awfully fast for sharpening, but it seemed like a pretty quick pass. When talking about tempering temperatures it's important to remember soak times as well. You could of course ruin a temper by grinding too hard or fast but the thickness behind the edge before sharpening should be relatively thin. You're really not removing enough material in the creation of a micro bevel to hurt a good temper. If you have say a 5mm thick blade and you put a micro bevel on it with a slowish belt, all of that mass acts as a heat sink. So yes you'll see sparks but think of it like when you see sparks using your knife spine with a piece of flint. The spark will be that temperature but not the mass of the knife. Obviously that's an over simplification since there are clearly not just 4 or five wee sparks in that video, but you get the idea. You bring up a good point with the edge polishing but again, many excellent makers actually sharpen with paper wheels on a bench grinder using this method. The finer the abrasive, the more heat generated (all speeds being equal) so this would for sure be the process to run the slowest. These companies have pretty rigorous testing though and if there was any perceptible issue with edge retention I'm sure they would either change the process or spend the majority of their time issuing refunds.

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[TLM]

The spark gloving white is with high probability well over 1200 C. It was not quite that hot when it left the part but it started burning in the air.

 

[0000]

The spark gloving white is with high probability well over 1200 C. It was not quite that hot when it left the part but it started burning in the air.

I didn't mention this but these companies that sharpen like this always seem to run a slack belt for convex edges. If you've ever tried this I'm sure you'll agree that there is so much give/slack in the belt that it barely gets warm. I believe that any heat or at least the majority of it is retained in the removed material and not the blade itself. If you tried this on a platen at that speed it would be a very different story of course. The only reason I don't do this is because I just don't think it gives the best/most consistent results but I'd have no qualms about doing it from a temper perspective. That being said, I'd be using a dunk bucket every pass just to be safe.

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