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N
Nomad
Guest
Well, the cat is out of the bag. It is indeed inspired by the Nebra sky disc. There was a clue all along for anyone that opened any of the photos in another window, or downloaded - they're all called "NSD nn.jpg". 
Some background rambling on where the idea came from... It all started with a sewing machine. When I picked up an old Singer recently, and got back into some sewing, I started planning a satchel (which is still being designed in my head). That led to me thinking about what I might put in it, which led to a bit of abstraction about old school gear, which included an 'ancient artifact'. I went to eBay to find one (obviously), but wasn't impressed with most of the Egyptian things (mostly painted resin castings, some that were too delicate for a satchel, like boats with bits sticking out, and some that were too big). I was after something that would survive a bit of rough and tumble in the satchel after I had been out on an artifact looting expedition.
I then looked at stuff that was a bit more obscure, like obsidian pyramids and various crystals, but they were mostly too small and maybe wouldn't come out clearly in a photo. I've been aware of the Nebra disc for a few years, and the idea to make one was probably a result of a separate activity - I have an occasional interest in ancient astronomy, and when the disc came to my attention again, I decided that it would be my ancient artifact.
I'm not trying to make an exact copy, but I do want something that's pretty close. I had originally planned to make it 8" in diameter so that it would easily go into the satchel, but ended up making it 10" on the basis that it has to have a life beyond the satchel thing - it will end up as an artistic piece that will hang on the wall. (The original is about 12.5", which is a bit big for the satchel.) I then looked into metals, and eventually settled on brass. I struggled a bit to find bronze (the original material) at reasonable prices, and copper would be just a bit too soft. I also looked into gold sheet but quickly stopped when I worked out it would be very expensive. Brass polishes up very well and can look close to gold, so thin brass sheet was chosen for the applied shapes.
To get the shapes and positions close, I made a tracing of a photo of the disc in CAD software. The picture below has the image of the disc darkened so that the CAD drawing shows up more clearly...
This started by importing the image and resizing it so that the disc was 320mm across (the size of the original). I then added the shapes by drawing on a separate layer, before copying the layout without the image to a separate area. This gave me a 1:1 scale drawing of the main features, and it was then straightforward to resize this to whatever I wanted. With the eventual size decided, it's easy to make the applied shapes the right size of the new disc. The original stars are 10mm, mine are 8mm, and the other shapes are derived from a printed 1:1 template at the new size.
Those that are familiar with the original may be aware of a few details relating to bits missing and changes made during its development. I won't be sticking exactly to these details. For example, I'll obviously have both of the long gold arcs because I've made both of them. A more subtle change I'm making is the angle created when you draw a pair of crossed lines from the ends of the arcs. On the original, the angle is 84°, which happens to be just about the angle between the summer and winter solstice sun rises and sets at the disc's latitude of 51°N. I'm very close to 56°N, and the solsticial range here is about 89°, so my disk will be 'calibrated' for my latitude - my arcs are proportionately longer than those in the original.
Something I'm a bit undecided on yet is simulating the damage. On the one hand, I don't want it to look too perfect, but I'm wary of making damage that doesn't look convincing. Anyone that plays electric guitar will likely be aware of so-called 'relic' finishes, where a guitar is artificially aged to make it look like it's been used for years. They're notoriously difficult to do well, and are often over the top. I'm aware of this, so will likely take my time to see what I can do to add some light damage. At the moment, I'm aiming for something that looks like it's from the same source or maker, looks old, maybe has some light damage, but is in better overall condition.
I won't go into details on how things will proceed from here, partly because I don't know if what I have planned will work (I'm still experimenting with some bits as I go), and partly because I like the idea of revealing each stage as it happens. At least photographing some the of the subsequent stages will be easier - I was expecting to have to stick to close-ups to avoid showing the whole disc once the bits were applied in case it gave the game away until the end.
More to come...
Some background rambling on where the idea came from... It all started with a sewing machine. When I picked up an old Singer recently, and got back into some sewing, I started planning a satchel (which is still being designed in my head). That led to me thinking about what I might put in it, which led to a bit of abstraction about old school gear, which included an 'ancient artifact'. I went to eBay to find one (obviously), but wasn't impressed with most of the Egyptian things (mostly painted resin castings, some that were too delicate for a satchel, like boats with bits sticking out, and some that were too big). I was after something that would survive a bit of rough and tumble in the satchel after I had been out on an artifact looting expedition.
I then looked at stuff that was a bit more obscure, like obsidian pyramids and various crystals, but they were mostly too small and maybe wouldn't come out clearly in a photo. I've been aware of the Nebra disc for a few years, and the idea to make one was probably a result of a separate activity - I have an occasional interest in ancient astronomy, and when the disc came to my attention again, I decided that it would be my ancient artifact.
I'm not trying to make an exact copy, but I do want something that's pretty close. I had originally planned to make it 8" in diameter so that it would easily go into the satchel, but ended up making it 10" on the basis that it has to have a life beyond the satchel thing - it will end up as an artistic piece that will hang on the wall. (The original is about 12.5", which is a bit big for the satchel.) I then looked into metals, and eventually settled on brass. I struggled a bit to find bronze (the original material) at reasonable prices, and copper would be just a bit too soft. I also looked into gold sheet but quickly stopped when I worked out it would be very expensive. Brass polishes up very well and can look close to gold, so thin brass sheet was chosen for the applied shapes.
To get the shapes and positions close, I made a tracing of a photo of the disc in CAD software. The picture below has the image of the disc darkened so that the CAD drawing shows up more clearly...
This started by importing the image and resizing it so that the disc was 320mm across (the size of the original). I then added the shapes by drawing on a separate layer, before copying the layout without the image to a separate area. This gave me a 1:1 scale drawing of the main features, and it was then straightforward to resize this to whatever I wanted. With the eventual size decided, it's easy to make the applied shapes the right size of the new disc. The original stars are 10mm, mine are 8mm, and the other shapes are derived from a printed 1:1 template at the new size.
Those that are familiar with the original may be aware of a few details relating to bits missing and changes made during its development. I won't be sticking exactly to these details. For example, I'll obviously have both of the long gold arcs because I've made both of them. A more subtle change I'm making is the angle created when you draw a pair of crossed lines from the ends of the arcs. On the original, the angle is 84°, which happens to be just about the angle between the summer and winter solstice sun rises and sets at the disc's latitude of 51°N. I'm very close to 56°N, and the solsticial range here is about 89°, so my disk will be 'calibrated' for my latitude - my arcs are proportionately longer than those in the original.
Something I'm a bit undecided on yet is simulating the damage. On the one hand, I don't want it to look too perfect, but I'm wary of making damage that doesn't look convincing. Anyone that plays electric guitar will likely be aware of so-called 'relic' finishes, where a guitar is artificially aged to make it look like it's been used for years. They're notoriously difficult to do well, and are often over the top. I'm aware of this, so will likely take my time to see what I can do to add some light damage. At the moment, I'm aiming for something that looks like it's from the same source or maker, looks old, maybe has some light damage, but is in better overall condition.
I won't go into details on how things will proceed from here, partly because I don't know if what I have planned will work (I'm still experimenting with some bits as I go), and partly because I like the idea of revealing each stage as it happens. At least photographing some the of the subsequent stages will be easier - I was expecting to have to stick to close-ups to avoid showing the whole disc once the bits were applied in case it gave the game away until the end.
More to come...
N
Nomad
Guest
I want to use methods that are a bit more benign than that.
The next step is to get the holes made in the arcs - in the original, the gold arc at the right and the 'sun boat', have holes through them, as does the blank on the left where the other gold arc is presumed to have been (with no indication that the arc's left edge was inboard of the holes in the main disc).
At this stage, I need to be careful with positioning - once the holes are made, I can't change the positions of the arcs. To help with this, I made a print from my CAD drawing...
I then placed the disc on top of this and used the extended lines as a guide for putting the two large arcs in position. (The arcs were removed from the sacrificial MDF, but I kept the tape on the underside to help keep the bits in place on the disc.). A bit more tricky to place the sun boat, so I made a second print and used that as a guide...
With the second print slid out of the way, I had the three arcs in position with enough tack from the tape to hold them in place...
I then flipped the whole lot over and marked through all the holes that were overlapped with tape using a sharpie, then flipped it back over and removed the arcs...
The marked points were drilled using a 1.8mm drill bit, with the ones at the edges worked a little with a small file...
The arcs were then put back onto the disc...
Registration looks pretty good. It was then supported on some soft softwood blocks and the pointy tool I used for shaping the original holes in the disc was used again to work the drawn shape into the arcs...
At the moment, the marks on the disc help with finding the right positions, which is important because the holes aren't evenly spaced - the original 39 marks I made were pretty close, but I deliberately misplaced a lot of the holes. That means that the arcs are unlikely to mate correctly with sets of holes in other positions around the circumference. Since the sharpie marks on the disc will be removed by the time the arcs are finally fixed in place, I'll add a couple of little registration marks to the disc (maybe as slight damage) so that I can put them down in the same positions.
Not much more metalwork to do now - tidy and polish the applied bits, and decide on what damage to add.
Two things come to mind...apart from it's a brilliant project
Firstly, your metal, brass, if you deal with the base plate and the adornments seperately, then they'll contrast beautifully.
Vinegar does a wonderful job on some brass. It depends on the copper content (I use brass or copper offcuts to make copper mordants) I find that it will either turn the brass an almost copper colour or make it blue green.
Ammonia usually turns the brass a rather muted grey/green colour.
Depends on just what mix is in your brass. The copper to zinc ratio, and if there's anything else in there too....lead is common.
The original disc was bronze (and that's a whole other ballgame because it will turn blue in ammonia or vinegar ammonia will give a deep ink blue coloured liquid while vinegar gives a turquoise blue liquid) and gold. Bronze might be a copper and tin or copper and arsenic base mix depending on where it's sourced. Either mix, and it's proportions, changes the final colour, and so does the inclusion of other metals/minerals....aluminium, silicon, manganese, phosphorus, etc.,
Incidentally, both mordants are toxic, they will kill plants, fish, etc., quite effectively if not disposed of with care. However, the sewage system manages to cope since copper pipes leach copper into the system anyway.
Secondly, something simple like vaseline on the parts that you don't want to change colour (the sun arcs and the moon positions) would leave them bright brass yellow.
Probably trying to teach you to suck eggs here; sorry if that's the case.
atb,
M
Firstly, your metal, brass, if you deal with the base plate and the adornments seperately, then they'll contrast beautifully.
Vinegar does a wonderful job on some brass. It depends on the copper content (I use brass or copper offcuts to make copper mordants) I find that it will either turn the brass an almost copper colour or make it blue green.
Ammonia usually turns the brass a rather muted grey/green colour.
Depends on just what mix is in your brass. The copper to zinc ratio, and if there's anything else in there too....lead is common.
The original disc was bronze (and that's a whole other ballgame because it will turn blue in ammonia or vinegar ammonia will give a deep ink blue coloured liquid while vinegar gives a turquoise blue liquid) and gold. Bronze might be a copper and tin or copper and arsenic base mix depending on where it's sourced. Either mix, and it's proportions, changes the final colour, and so does the inclusion of other metals/minerals....aluminium, silicon, manganese, phosphorus, etc.,
Incidentally, both mordants are toxic, they will kill plants, fish, etc., quite effectively if not disposed of with care. However, the sewage system manages to cope since copper pipes leach copper into the system anyway.
Secondly, something simple like vaseline on the parts that you don't want to change colour (the sun arcs and the moon positions) would leave them bright brass yellow.
Probably trying to teach you to suck eggs here; sorry if that's the case.
atb,
M
A wild idea:
Considering the effort you put in, and (so far) excellent result, would it be feasible to gilt the 'sky objects'?
I do not know the cost, maybe a jeweler close to you could be asked?
If cost is too high, I think there is a lacquer that you could use to preserve the high shine surface.
Future plans - into a local museum?
It is an interesting item, has anybody cracked the meaning of it?
Considering the effort you put in, and (so far) excellent result, would it be feasible to gilt the 'sky objects'?
I do not know the cost, maybe a jeweler close to you could be asked?
If cost is too high, I think there is a lacquer that you could use to preserve the high shine surface.
Future plans - into a local museum?
It is an interesting item, has anybody cracked the meaning of it?
N
Nomad
Guest
On my wall.
No, but plenty of people think they have mapped out the whole cosmos, and can predict when the earth is going to implode/explode/melt/freeze. However, anybody with a planetarium program, a pair of binoculars, or even a Mk1 eyeball, can tell that the supposed Pleiades cluster is nothing like the real thing in terms of the positions of the stars relative to each other, that there are no obvious representations of constellations in the other stars, and that the shaded side of the Moon is facing towards the Sun (oops), or that, if it's actually two Moons, then having two of them is a bit suspicious.
N
Nomad
Guest
Been adding some light damage and general imperfections around the edge...
Per the original, a bit gone from the 11 o'clock position, and a small nick at about 1 o'clock (hard to see because of the reflection). Also hard to see in the photo are varous small bits of material removal around the edge to reduce the neatly-geometric circular shape, and some removal of material around the edge at the left-hand arc to bring the edge of the applied part closer to the edge of the disc (there was a bit of a gap).
Some of the scalloping to reduce the regularity can be seen in this somewhat fuzzy photo...
That's a fairly general feature all around. The bits at 11 o'clock and 1 o'clock were cut out using a jeweler's saw, and the larger bit was then dented using a bit of wood with a notch cut it as an anvil or former, and whacking the edge of the disc using a wedge-shaped bit of softwood...
A couple of closer shots of this area...
I'll probably do a bit of final hammering around the edge to try and get it the thickness more irregular, but that's about it for the disc.
Per the original, a bit gone from the 11 o'clock position, and a small nick at about 1 o'clock (hard to see because of the reflection). Also hard to see in the photo are varous small bits of material removal around the edge to reduce the neatly-geometric circular shape, and some removal of material around the edge at the left-hand arc to bring the edge of the applied part closer to the edge of the disc (there was a bit of a gap).
Some of the scalloping to reduce the regularity can be seen in this somewhat fuzzy photo...
That's a fairly general feature all around. The bits at 11 o'clock and 1 o'clock were cut out using a jeweler's saw, and the larger bit was then dented using a bit of wood with a notch cut it as an anvil or former, and whacking the edge of the disc using a wedge-shaped bit of softwood...
A couple of closer shots of this area...
I'll probably do a bit of final hammering around the edge to try and get it the thickness more irregular, but that's about it for the disc.
Looking close up on your re-creation, surely the holes were for attaching the disc to something? A leather hide?
BTW, have they decided what is up/down on the disk?
All articles seem to want the (boat) shape at the bottom.
BTW, have they decided what is up/down on the disk?
All articles seem to want the (boat) shape at the bottom.
The golden 'shapes' have an interesting provenance, the bronze too.
Points to some intricate trade routes!
Points to some intricate trade routes!
https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/local-news/1million-sky-disc-nebra-contains-2631272
If you get bored of it on your wall, Caerhays Castle might be interested.
Z
If you get bored of it on your wall, Caerhays Castle might be interested.
Z
No, it's some kind of almanac.
From it's time it appears to be tied into the seasonal round of just 'when'.
No clocks back then, only the tide comes in and out, but the stars shift and appear with an entirely different set of cycles.
Folks trying to make sense of it all, and tied into that is when is best to plant, to sow, to set out on a voyage, etc.
From it's time it appears to be tied into the seasonal round of just 'when'.
No clocks back then, only the tide comes in and out, but the stars shift and appear with an entirely different set of cycles.
Folks trying to make sense of it all, and tied into that is when is best to plant, to sow, to set out on a voyage, etc.
Too specious a claim.
Ritual takes on too many meanings that even now archaeologists are becoming reluctant to facetiously / seriously claim that something is of ritual significance.
For instance, given a modern take on it, the Christmas table cover is of 'ritual significance', but of none, iimmc.
Ritual takes on too many meanings that even now archaeologists are becoming reluctant to facetiously / seriously claim that something is of ritual significance.
For instance, given a modern take on it, the Christmas table cover is of 'ritual significance', but of none, iimmc.
As it has been changed several times, the use of it has probably changed too.
We do not even know what side is up and down.
I do not think this matters much, I am more impressed by the widespread sources of the materials, which indicate some very healthy trade routes.
The construction is a bit amateurish ( but using hugely expensive gold) compared with so many objects from this time, which imo would indicate a less noble use for it than many think.
I wonder if the fact that it had gold pieces does not indicate that it was used in the dark, with fire light.
We will never know!
I love those internet sites that deal with UFO's, prehistoric giants, flatearth, and so on.
Good fun. More fun that many comedians.
Shows that peoples fantasy is till very much active, which is a healthy thing!
We do not even know what side is up and down.
I do not think this matters much, I am more impressed by the widespread sources of the materials, which indicate some very healthy trade routes.
The construction is a bit amateurish ( but using hugely expensive gold) compared with so many objects from this time, which imo would indicate a less noble use for it than many think.
I wonder if the fact that it had gold pieces does not indicate that it was used in the dark, with fire light.
We will never know!
I love those internet sites that deal with UFO's, prehistoric giants, flatearth, and so on.
Good fun. More fun that many comedians.
Shows that peoples fantasy is till very much active, which is a healthy thing!
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