I always thought that if it got that dire we'd see a lot of subsistence farming. Made me want to build a victorian walled kitchen garden a few years ago(Shame It never happened really, Now I have the time to spend in the garden).
doomsdayers/preppers
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I think the reasoning against either hunter/gatherer or subsistence farming is that in a total collapse either one would require far more land than is available to support today's large urban populations.
Hence my middle of the night question of "...how many competing people would we each need to kill off?".
Peter
I got the info from a survivalisum site I think the data was after some sort of world wide disaster. Modern man thrown in to the Mesolithic I am looking for the site again. it had tones of lists covering everything you could like of. but it was 4-5 mounth ago.
I am only passing on info I got off a survivalism site I was easy to remember as all the number are mulipules of one another I am looking for the site so you can have a look
Seams simple really, CANILBALISM, I mean It worked in the andes, and John Franklins expedition, and even polynesia until recently, AND it would solve the problem of too many competing people as well as not having enough land to feed yourself.Palmnut said:
Seriusly though, Hydroponics works on the USS Voyager and fr the local canabis dealers, so why not a small scale set up in your loft? all you need is Nutrient rich liquids and a UV light.
A major problem for 'survivalists' and indeed UFO believers is both topics seem to attract more than their share of somewhat strange people (both areas of interest for me worryingly enough!).
A lot of preppers seem to think, na, almost pray for the ultimate plague that will kill off 99% of the population giving them a chance to come out into the open and lead the remaining few onwards and upwards to a better world under their guidance. Very few of them think they or their family will die, ask the question and its often ignored. Many think their bug out bag will let them survive and move on.
To be honest, the big 'kill off' (as its known in prepping circles) would be the best base to rebuild on, plenty of stores to hand etc, now only knock out 10% of the population and you would be in deep trouble, it would be enough dead to ensure the failure of most key services and then the battles over your bug out bag or case of baked beans could be life or death.
I'm fine, plenty of food, fuel for stoves and lanterns, clean water et al but in reality I could not defend my home against even a few people who were determined to grab my supplies. I've no doubt we will see some emergencies in this country, maybe worsening winters, maybe a major terrorist attack or three and thats really what I'm geared up for. As a family we could sit indoors for about three months now, I'd like more stores but at the moment am short on storage space.
A lot of preppers seem to think, na, almost pray for the ultimate plague that will kill off 99% of the population giving them a chance to come out into the open and lead the remaining few onwards and upwards to a better world under their guidance. Very few of them think they or their family will die, ask the question and its often ignored. Many think their bug out bag will let them survive and move on.
To be honest, the big 'kill off' (as its known in prepping circles) would be the best base to rebuild on, plenty of stores to hand etc, now only knock out 10% of the population and you would be in deep trouble, it would be enough dead to ensure the failure of most key services and then the battles over your bug out bag or case of baked beans could be life or death.
I'm fine, plenty of food, fuel for stoves and lanterns, clean water et al but in reality I could not defend my home against even a few people who were determined to grab my supplies. I've no doubt we will see some emergencies in this country, maybe worsening winters, maybe a major terrorist attack or three and thats really what I'm geared up for. As a family we could sit indoors for about three months now, I'd like more stores but at the moment am short on storage space.
That was the reason why I quickly 'dropped out' of the survivalist scene (good Lord I hated, and still do hate, that word) in the eighties about as quick as I got into it. Everybody I met who was involved in it was the sort of person that made me glad the doors of my house had locks on them. They really were the sort of people that the term 'social misfit' was designed for, and while some social misfits can be entertaining and enrichening via contact, not this lot. They were a little too close to Michael Ryan of Hungerford clones with huge chips on their shoulders.
So off I went, and did my own thing as far under the radar as possible. I did NOT want to be associated in any way with that lot.
Glad to say that bushcraft, and the whole scene around it, is much more socially acceptable now. I got a friendly 'hi' and a smile from some walkers as I trekked down the path to the woods today with my 72hr sack with the golok handle sticking out of the top of the pack. 25 years ago they'd have looked at you with suspicion and horror. Thats how much it has changed.
And for that, I'm seriously grateful.
Did you ever notice how the people who believe that the moon landing was faked are the same ones who believe that professional wrestling is real?
Dont forget SETI & the Mob/JFK/CIA & CIA/911 Conspiracy theorists atracting more than their fare share of nutters/ End of days survivalists. Whenever New evidence is revealed they all claim its compromised or faked. Ho Hum, there's nowt as quear as folk.
Whenever I think of survivalists I always think that IF that Terrorist plauge or mutated Flu kills loads of people the infection wil(at least at first) go undetected, so it will be totally up to fate if you or yours are infected, and if they transmit it to you, your stock pile of NBC gear and MRE's, along with that De Restricted FAL will be totally worthless in your garrage/ Celler/ Personal Panic Room. The only way to protect yourself will be to live in a comune with like minded nutters, and never leave, which will bring loads of other problems, like the effects of close contact with por facilities such as healcare
Whenever I think of survivalists I always think that IF that Terrorist plauge or mutated Flu kills loads of people the infection wil(at least at first) go undetected, so it will be totally up to fate if you or yours are infected, and if they transmit it to you, your stock pile of NBC gear and MRE's, along with that De Restricted FAL will be totally worthless in your garrage/ Celler/ Personal Panic Room. The only way to protect yourself will be to live in a comune with like minded nutters, and never leave, which will bring loads of other problems, like the effects of close contact with por facilities such as healcare
santaman2000 Native
That is realy funny
I like that .
The reply to post button is not working propely
Did you ever notice how the people who believe that the moon landing was faked are the same ones who believe that professional wrestling is real?
That is realy funny
I like that . The reply to post button is not working propely
Did you ever notice how the people who believe that the moon landing was faked are the same ones who believe that professional wrestling is real?
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sorry I have spent hours and hours trying to find the wed site with the survival rates on it no luck it was about 4-5 mouths ago and I do not surf the web like most people do as I am severely Dyslexic I goggle some thing then clic goggle image and go through the thumb nails till I find what I am looking for so I was trying to find a thumb nail from 4-5 mouths ago and I can not remember what it looked like sorry.
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What I find realy annoying is people you talk to who thing that there is no differance between Survivalium and Bushcraft (you get a lot of it on youtube) and thay put you in the nutters category 2012. rapture. comit yu55 is going to split the Earth in too. the New World Order is going to put us all in concentration camps. ect' I know I am a bit of a Nutter myself (Dyslexia 4.5 score-ASD) Symtoms include very poor social skills, jumping from one subject to another, bad sort term memory. poor conversation skills.poor consentration repeting one self when making a point repeting one self when making a point lol I am a cross between the detective Monk and shelldon on the big bang theary the tv programs I have a high IQ mine is 100-113 a G.P.or sorlisitor has a IQ of around 80-95 A Genius has an IQ of over 120 So you can see why it is annoying to me. I know I comeacross as odd to most people but I do not think that professional wrestling is real or any of the above.Sorry jumping subject again.Doomsday/prepper!
lol I am a cross between the detective Monk and shelldon on the big bang theary the tv programs I have a high IQ mine is 100-113 a G.P.or sorlisitor has a IQ of around 80-95 A Genius has an IQ of over 120 So you can see why it is annoying to me. I know I comeacross as odd to most people but I do not think that professional wrestling is real or any of the above.Sorry jumping subject again.Doomsday/prepper!
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If you think The rise and fall of the Third Reich is interesting you should look up the economic collapse of Argentina in 2005 or 2006 so you get a good idea of what it is like after t****. I am harf German and my mother ( German ) lived through the economic collapes in Germany she told me that her Farther had to bring his wages home in a wheelbarrow and she could remember going to the shops with her mother for bread her mother had a large wicker washing basket full of money it was to big to take into the crowded shop so she left it outside by the time she had got to the front of the que and got served the price of bread had gone up so much that she had not got enough money with her ( Hyperinfation )when she went outside some one had tiped the money on the pavement and nicked the basket. a true story. My dad 89 still has some German Money DM 10,000 note DM 100,000 note and two DM 100 notes from 1921 or 1914 I can not remember I will ask him.he had them valued not long ago and thay are worth about 10p each the DM100 note is worth about £20
qwerty@ I'm reading The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by W Shirer at the moment and it's uncanny the similarities between then and now, both politically and economically. Cheap foreign credit flooding the market, political apathy. Thankfully the main missing ingredient is acceptance and appetite for conflict within Europe, otherwise we could be in a very different place.
the reply button did not work again It put it as a new thread
qwerty@ I'm reading The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by W Shirer at the moment and it's uncanny the similarities between then and now, both politically and economically. Cheap foreign credit flooding the market, political apathy. Thankfully the main missing ingredient is acceptance and appetite for conflict within Europe, otherwise we could be in a very different place.
the reply button did not work again It put it as a new thread
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It is so true what you have said. What I find realy sad is that today it is impossible to live as a hunter-gatheres live style in the UK as we have killed of native animals and distroyed habitat to the point the it is no longer possibe to live in the wild in the UK It is still possible in northen Europe but not in the UK. So sad The info I read was about some massive disaster (A Massive CME) and a rough guild to preppers to work in groups and not to try and go it alone. It seams valid ( idea )info if a little vague.
While I wouldnt dispute the fact that most data suggest that the people of the hunter-gatherer-age were working together in small family-groups/tribes, I would consider the numbers you posted to be taken from a specific context.
Your data suggest a kind of liniarized connection between the number of people and the survivability; which would be very difficult to achieve in a hunter-gatherer environment.
The temperature, soil type, yearly precipitation and the distribution of this precipitation has tremendous impact on how large a population a piece of land can accomodate.
This table shows a simple overview for different types of terrain.
So, considering a realistic area coverage (radius 10 km), these 28 persons would be SURE to die, if they should choose to stay together in an arctic environment, whereas the could invite quite a number of friends if they were to stay in a tropical environment.
This is probably one of the main reasons that so many of the hunter-gatheres infact were nomads.
//Kim Horsevad
I find it interesting that many people in the US have the idea that they would survive by hunting. In my home state we have a huge deer population and a very successful regulated hunting season. The Game Commission a few years ago decided to thin the herd and allow more habitat to form that supports wild turkey. They allowed the hunting of does. Keep in mind this is only in the regular limited season. Everyone got their deer, lots of does in the freezers. In short order the herd was drastically reduced. I heard all sorts of complaints as to how hard it was to get a deer all of a sudden. The deer herd was just way too big to be healthy anyway so this wasn't an ecological disaster, it did underscore what would happen to game populations if year round unrestricted hunting was to take place. The deer population would be G-O-N-E, gone in a matter of a few months if the population decided to suddenly eat them.
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In the 70's it wasn't really called survivalism but grew to have that label stuck on it then what was to start a few groups of chums with a common view of living outdoors it went commercial, (like bushcraft) and all of a sudden everybody was ex SAS/para's/Foreign Legion. Its never died off completely nor should it but you have to pick your friends in bushcraft and prepping with a bit of care; talk/camp with those you like and share opinions, and walk away from those you don't.
Wise words those above Richard, about picking friends etc carefully. I agree, and practice the same. Probably why for about every 100 people I meet, I'm comfortable becoming friends with 1, or less, of them. That's my definition of 'friend'* BTW. The rest I'll happily leave at acquaintance. Served me well so far, and certainly cuts down on the BS'ers and fakers in your life.
*Friend - someone I'd drive from Scotland to the south coast of England for at 10 mins notice at 4am to get out of a jam, lend money too, give a place to stay etc.
*Friend - someone I'd drive from Scotland to the south coast of England for at 10 mins notice at 4am to get out of a jam, lend money too, give a place to stay etc.
I've just watched the show and the first thing I noticed is the importance most people tend to place on guns rather than basic survival skills. Medical skills, knowledge of plants/animals herbs, tracking, psychology to name a few would be far more important I'd think?
Also the fact that they all seem to believe that this one place on Earth can keep them alive when well prepped comes across as being very narrow minded to me. Why limit your options like that? A well stocked campervan with engineering skills/supplies and navigational skills and various pre-planned routes would seem far safer to me.
Watching this really did make me wonder though, what if.. We live in a city in an apartment top floor of a 7 story building with very little space to spare. This severely limits our options in case of a doomsday event.
My girlfriend was watching with me and thought those people were completely insane at first. At the end of the show however she decided that we should perhaps look into getting a bag ready in case of emergency.
Also the fact that they all seem to believe that this one place on Earth can keep them alive when well prepped comes across as being very narrow minded to me. Why limit your options like that? A well stocked campervan with engineering skills/supplies and navigational skills and various pre-planned routes would seem far safer to me.
Watching this really did make me wonder though, what if.. We live in a city in an apartment top floor of a 7 story building with very little space to spare. This severely limits our options in case of a doomsday event.
My girlfriend was watching with me and thought those people were completely insane at first. At the end of the show however she decided that we should perhaps look into getting a bag ready in case of emergency.
Modern vehicles, including campervans, of the last 20 years vintage, would be rendered useless by an EMP blast. This doesn't have to come from an atomic device, sun activity can cause the same, and is thought to have done in the past.
So it then becomes a static tin hut with all your gear in it that a determined 8 year old with a can opener can get into.
So it then becomes a static tin hut with all your gear in it that a determined 8 year old with a can opener can get into.
