The scary, the strange, the paranormal...

[zarkwon]

It is worth noting though that as limited as primitive peoples understanding was, almost all of them have some reference to a "creation" and an "end" which when you think about it is parallel to the big bang and the supposed coming collapse of the universe. Science postulated that the universe had always been (with no beginning or end) until Einstein theorized otherwise less than a century ago.

Of course they do. Imagine the caveman on leaving his cave and looking at the animals he has for food and clothing, caves and trees for shelter and fire, water running past in the stream. He has everything he could need. "Who could have designed all of this for us?" he wonders "Well, the only thing I know of capable of that sort of thinking is me and this is all really big so it must have been a big one of me."
This is how it happens because we have evolved to be problem solving animals. We look for problems and find solutions and we are so successful as a species because we do it well. Our caveman was dead wrong though. He is like a puddle wondering who could have made the hole in which he is sitting so perfectly just for him. The hole was there first and the puddle fits it so well because it grew into it. No-one needs to have created it all, it fits us so well because we evolved into it. Darwin killed creationism.
The universe is not thought to be going to collapse into a big crunch. It will go on expanding into heat death we now think.

As to some of their cultural beliefs (i.e. subjugating women, slavery, some others we might consider objectionable today); if there is no higher being of authority then nothing is inherently good or evil. There is only what society excepts or does not except; Those practices are neither good (virtuous) nor evil (sin); they are only what society accepts or rejects and in the end will not matter either way.
It will not matter if we become extinct and take the planet with us since it would only be a coincidence that the universe exists at all.

Exactly, there is no absolute moral authority or good and evil. We are on our own and the sooner we recognise it and agree on a set of morals to live by the sooner we can stop stoning each other to death for inappropriate attire etc. Many say that without the bible there is no morality. We do not take our morality from the bible. We do not stone people or kill our children for talking back as it says we must. We cherry pick the rules we find socially acceptable because we recognise that the bible is not a moral book.

 

[zarkwon]

AndyBb I see your point, very well put I must say.

Point taken about religion fobbing off the questioning believer with the "Have faith, my son" card. I suppose when you think about it science does offer a reasonable attempt at explaining something or disproving it. It's all these supposed theories that stick in my craw.
Theory for this, theory for that. Pretty soon those theories become fact as more people accept them and anyone not in the herd is considered heretic.

Obviously I'm no rocket science and it's just my opinion but science is also guilty of playing the "have faith card" too. "All of us clever chaps who are more educated than you have sat down in this room for days and days and debated the issue and we've come to the conclusion that ... XY&Z."

Pretty soon it's become an accepted "fact".

Exactly wrong. The point of science is that it is repeatable and peer reviewed so that the same results can be found by anyone doing the same experiment. You do not have to take anyone's word for it.

 

[zarkwon]

While I disagree with your contempt of a grand design, we apparently agree on a great deal. Yes a theory is only that and good ones self correct as new evidence is uncovered. However as you said it depends less on what you can prove and more on what you are unable to disprove. We cannot disprove God; a god (or gods) of any Western or Eastern belief. I personally believe in science and in God.

You cannot disprove the theory of the invisible pink unicorn creator or the FSM or Russell's Flying Teapot either but I assume you don't talk to them before you go to bed at night? As far as I can say I know anything, I can say I am sitting on my chair and typing on my keyboard. I do not check at each keystroke that that is really true and that my chair is still under me. We take certain things to be true. The theory that my chair is under me is not being proved false all the time that is remains there and over time I have been able to surmise that the theory is sufficiently stable to stop worrying about it and get on with typing.
Occam's razor or the law of parsimony says we should take the explanation which makes the fewest new assumptions. God explanations are the same as saying it's magic. I don't believe in magic, I'm not 6.

 

[Biker]

Exactly wrong. The point of science is that it is repeatable and peer reviewed so that the same results can be found by anyone doing the same experiment. You do not have to take anyone's word for it.

You're basing these experiments on current thinking and parameters. My point is that in 100 years time all these so called facts could be toilet paper. Who knows what things might be commom place in the future?

200 years ago every scientist knew powered flight was "impossible"

150 years ago Scientists knew that to travel faster than 60mph would break your neck.

All I'm saying is why bog yourself down with such draconian ideas and dismiss anyone elses thoughts because they don't conform to yours.

To paraphrase somehting I heard a while ago "The biggest trick the devil ever pulled off was making people believe he didn't exist."

Maybe man has got so far up his own educated ar$e there's no room them to have that open mind.

 

[santaman2000]

AndyBb I see your point, very well put I must say.

Point taken about religion fobbing off the questioning believer with the "Have faith, my son" card. I suppose when you think about it science does offer a reasonable attempt at explaining something or disproving it. It's all these supposed theories that stick in my craw.
Theory for this, theory for that. Pretty soon those theories become fact as more people accept them and anyone not in the herd is considered heretic.

Obviously I'm no rocket science and it's just my opinion but science is also guilty of playing the "have faith card" too. "All of us clever chaps who are more educated than you have sat down in this room for days and days and debated the issue and we've come to the conclusion that ... XY&Z."

Pretty soon it's become an accepted "fact".

Big bang origin or the whole universe in a molecule in a glass of water? Seems to me the only thing you can trust are how you feel when you're in your hammock and something is keeping you awake at night and telling you pack up and leave. Put it down to your imagination, wood spirits or god. The choice is yours. I know what I'd do.

Kinda like Eddie Murpy's stand-uo routine years ago. He was talking about the scene in The Exhorsist when the house ordered the priest, GET OUT!" Eddie said, "I don't know abouy you but when a HOUSE tells me to GET OUT!, I'm gonna get out."

 

[zarkwon]

Big bang origin or the whole universe in a molecule in a glass of water? Seems to me the only thing you can trust are how you feel when you're in your hammock and something is keeping you awake at night and telling you pack up and leave. Put it down to your imagination, wood spirits or god. The choice is yours. I know what I'd do.

Me too. I'd remind myself that there's no such things as goblins, that it's just my mind playing tricks on me in the dark and tell myself to snap out of it whilst proceeding to enjoy being in the big outdoors. Then in the morning I'd congratulate myself on not giving in to "The Fear" and enjoy a bush breakfast whilst gloating about those sitting sheepishly at home eating their cornflakes in shame lol.

 

[ex member coconino]

... Science postulated that the universe had always been (with no beginning or end) until Einstein theorized otherwise less than a century ago. ...

Another point of fact, Einstein imposed a cosmological constant in order to avoid the conclusion that the Universe was expanding, as he believed in a static Universe. True, his General Theory of Relativity predicts either an expanding or contracting universe, but Einstein himself didn't believe in either. It was only when Edwin Hubble (after whom the space telescope is named) proved that the Universe was expanding that Einstein admitted his error, saying that it was "the greatest blunder of my life". It was this discovery which led to theories about the Big Bang (a name coined by Fred Hoyle, intending to disparage the theory).

 

[Biker]

Me too. I'd remind myself that there's no such things as goblins, that it's just my mind playing tricks on me in the dark and tell myself to snap out of it whilst proceeding to enjoy being in the big outdoors. Then in the morning I'd congratulate myself on not giving in to "The Fear" and enjoy a bush breakfast whilst gloating about those sitting sheepishly at home eating their cornflakes in shame lol.

LOL Let me know where you often camp, I'll place some wild flowers there in your memory where the axe murderer got you... when I've finished my cornflakes of course.

Nice fencing with ya mate. Gotta do some work now. Later fella.

 

[zarkwon]

You're basing these experiments on current thinking and parameters. My point is that in 100 years time all these so called facts could be toilet paper. Who knows what things might be commom place in the future?

200 years ago every scientist knew powered flight was "impossible"

150 years ago Scientists knew that to travel faster than 60mph would break your neck.

All I'm saying is why bog yourself down with such draconian ideas and dismiss anyone elses thoughts because they don't conform to yours.

To paraphrase somehting I heard a while ago "The biggest trick the devil ever pulled off was making people believe he didn't exist."

Maybe man has got so far up his own educated ar$e there's no room them to have that open mind.

Because it makes no sense.

I despair sometimes. How has science got such a bad rep??? It is religion that has the dogma, the closed mind, has done the killing, the damning and the banning etc.

Yes, today's theories will change (unlike the dogma of the church!!!!!!!). This is the beauty of the scientific method! In the meantime, no scientist I know is ever saying they have the absolute truth!!!!!! Science is the opposite of claiming absolute knowledge!!!!!! Breathe.

 

[No Idea]

Been sitting here listening to the whooshing sounds as that lot went over my head.

Atually, thinking about my head...

I fell out of my hammock one night in the woods with the kids.

I had a fire glowing. A piece of wood went bang and spat out some embers.

Looking at them, with my nose on the ground and my feet tangled in my hammock, I noticed that they were all jagged..

Reminded me of all those pics Ive seen of car bombs...

Realised that all those bits were jagged too...

As I struggled to get my feet out so I could go deal with the fire, I ended up sort of half out with my nose out past the tarp..

The whole sky was full of stars..

I was thinking about how they are all round ball shaped things.

Then it suddenly occurred to me that they arnt solids, all the planets and moons and stars are liquids - thats why they are all round instead of jagged as only liquids form round droplets when spilled...

Earths crust... continental drifts...shimmering colours on bubbles...

Had to stop as my hair was on fire.

 

[zarkwon]

LOL Let me know where you often camp, I'll place some wild flowers there in your memory where the axe murderer got you... when I've finished my cornflakes of course.

Nice fencing with ya mate. Gotta do some work now. Later fella.

Always a pleasure mate. Don't work too hard, I'm not finished with you yet

 

[santaman2000]

...The universe is not thought to be going to collapse into a big crunch. It will go on expanding into heat death we now think...

I haven't heard that theory. The Big Crunch (I hadn't heard a name given to this theory either) is the one still being taught as most likely in university. However even there it is far from being completely understood and I don't dispute the possibillity of the over expansion you mention; what would we call such a theory? Disipation? When you say "Heat death" do you mean matter will disintegrate into heat? Or heat will disapate and molecular motion stop? Either prospect defies Newtonian physics but that's not really very important; The whole big bang concept does that already.

 

[Biker]

Because it makes no sense.

I despair sometimes. How has science got such a bad rep??? It is religion that has the dogma, the closed mind, has done the killing, the damning and the banning etc.

Yes, today's theories will change (unlike the dogma of the church!!!!!!!). This is the beauty of the scientific method! In the meantime, no scientist I know is ever saying they have the absolute truth!!!!!! Science is the opposite of claiming absolute knowledge!!!!!! Breathe.

Halleujah brother! (pun intended) at least we agree at least partially on that. Gotta dash!

 

[ex member coconino]

You're basing these experiments on current thinking and parameters. My point is that in 100 years time all these so called facts could be toilet paper. Who knows what things might be commom place in the future?

200 years ago every scientist knew powered flight was "impossible"

150 years ago Scientists knew that to travel faster than 60mph would break your neck.

All I'm saying is why bog yourself down with such draconian ideas and dismiss anyone elses thoughts because they don't conform to yours.

To paraphrase somehting I heard a while ago "The biggest trick the devil ever pulled off was making people believe he didn't exist."

Maybe man has got so far up his own educated ar$e there's no room them to have that open mind.

Show me where it says scientists thought powered flight would be impossible!

Replace "scientists" with "engineers" and you might be right!

(and that quote is from "The Usual Suspects", BTW, though it may have earlier origins elsewhere)

 

[rik_uk3]

"We are on our own" In your opinion Zarkwon, in your opinion mate and opinions are like As* holes, we all have one:borgsmile

 

[zarkwon]

I haven't heard that theory. The Big Crunch (I hadn't heard a name given to this theory either) is the one still being taught as most likely in university. However even there it is far from being completely understood and I don't dispute the possibillity of the over expansion you mention; what would we call such a theory? Disipation? When you say "Heat death" do you mean matter will disintegrate into heat? Or heat will disapate and molecular motion stop? Either prospect defies Newtonian physics but that's not really very important; The whole big bang concept does that already.

I suppose it would be maximum entropy.

 

[John Fenna]

That which cannot be explained by science does not exist - unfortunately some of that science has yet to be discovered!
Science used to say " things cannot be in two places at once" now it says "Ooops - yes it can!"
Currently science says "God/ghosts/goblins/spirits do not exist" next year who knows what science will tell us....
Science does not have all the answers to phenomena that has loads of witness evidence ....yet!

 

[zarkwon]

"We are on our own" In your opinion Zarkwon, in your opinion mate and opinions are like As* holes, we all have one:borgsmile

Some have bigger ones than others. All opinions are not equiprobable though. Just because we disagree on a matter does not mean the truth is in between. There is such a thing as being plain wrong.

 

[ex member coconino]

I haven't heard that theory. The Big Crunch (I hadn't heard a name given to this theory either) is the one still being taught as most likely in university. However even there it is far from being completely understood and I don't dispute the possibillity of the over expansion you mention; what would we call such a theory? Disipation?

Basically, the observed rate of expansion of the Universe is greater -- and accelerating faster -- than would be supposed from the amount of gravity in the Universe, therefore there must be some factor causing this expansion. At the moment we're calling this "dark energy" but there's no direct evidence of an actual force involved, so it may be that something else is in play. One theory is that our local bit of the Universe is in a lens-like bubble which causes galaxies outside the bubble to appear to have a higher red shift than they would otherwise have. It's all at the cutting edge of astrophysics at the moment and a hugely interesting subject.

Oops, I didn't actually answer your question! It's variously called "heat death" or "state of zero thermodynamic free energy". Luckily, we're nearer the very, very beginning of the Universe than its cold, dark end. We're still in the era of star and galaxy formation, and have trillions of years ahead of us.

 

[zarkwon]

That which cannot be explained by science does not exist - unfortunately some of that science has yet to be discovered!
Science used to say " things cannot be in two places at once" now it says "Ooops - yes it can!"
Currently science says "God/ghosts/goblins/spirits do not exist" next year who knows what science will tell us....
Science does not have all the answers to phenomena that has loads of witness evidence ....yet!

Have you read the previous posts? I am pretty sure this has all been said. Twice at least.
Wait, did I hear you attempt to introduce evidence for the supernatural??? OOOhhhh goody. I'll bite.