What do you think of GPS units?

[bambodoggy]

The GPS is a back up. It was very useful in the fog on one occasion though...couldn't see more than 10 feet in front of me!

To me that's exactly when you should be practicing your Nav....walking bearings and counting paces....then you'll not need to worry about having the GPS with you.... I'd rather have a handfull of ten pebbles

If you're Nav is up to it and you are on land (I can't speak for Sea as I have no idea) then as I said below there is just no need for a back up...
I know that 63 left foot paces of mine on flat level ground is pretty much exactly 100 Metres....

Just my opinion and certainly no offence meant :biggthump

 

[spamel]

I believe GPS to be an excellent tool enabling an unskilled person, who has taken a couple of hours to get to grips with it, to navigate in unknown terrain with little to no assistance.

And this is where the problem lies, untrained people out in a possibly hazardous enviornment. Just imagine the possible outcomes:

Ooops, didn't put fresh batteries in before I left - Result, totally lost.

Ooops, I've just dropped the damned thing and the screen is totally knackered -Result, an unscheduled night out in the woods.

And besides from relying on it and getting lazy with our core map reading skills, it takes some of the enjoyment away from the walk. Constantly looking down at a screen instead of the panoramic view in front of you whilst taking a bearing is not my idea of fun, and waiting for a satellite fix when you could have got a map out and done the job just as quickly seems like a good way of holding yourself up. Maybe I should get my brew kit out at the same time!

I spoke to a guy in Currys when I bought my PDA who said they were great because you can put a GPS on them and you have all your navigational needs. Wrong attitude matey.

I do think GPS has a place in bushcraft and all outdoor pursuits, and I own a Garmin 12 which is still in a brand new condition (possibly due to me not relying on it), but people should consider that if they own a GPS but not a map of the area and a compass, then they shouldn't be going further than the local shops.

 

[BIG-TARGET]

Problem is that most of the trails in the state forest I frequent, the trails have been around since the indians lived in NJ. And are pretty well established. The only way I can get lost, Is if I'm walk around right after taking a major crack to the head! :yikes:

 

[familne]

I've used GPS for a few years now for work (locating monitoring plots, rare plants etc.) - it's become an absolutely essential piece of kit. When EGNOS comes online (scheduled for march 2005 but don't hold your breath) it will be even better (3m accuracy). I've never had a problem with it's accuracy or loss of signal etc and would recommend it as a back up to traditional navigation skills. I think the emergency services also recommend people carry one because if you fall, become disorientated etc. you can hopefully quote your grid ref (that is if you haven't dropped it, but a strong lanyard and karabiner should solve that).

I've read elsewhere that traditionalists who would never consider carrying a gps have had accidents and have given totally wrong map co-ordinates to the rescue teams. At least if they had a gps they could have cross referenced their readings with it. I think gps technology should be fully embraced as an excellent safety tool but obviously not a substitute for common sense skills.

 

[Celtic Dragon]

I've just bought 1 today (Garmin Fortrex 201), I thought GPS was already at 3m accuracy although I've just started playing with mine, I haven't got aan accuaracy reading of better than 16m!!

 

[Stevie]

To me that's exactly when you should be practicing your Nav....walking bearings and counting paces....then you'll not need to worry about having the GPS with you.... I'd rather have a handfull of ten pebbles

If you're Nav is up to it and you are on land (I can't speak for Sea as I have no idea) then as I said below there is just no need for a back up...
I know that 63 left foot paces of mine on flat level ground is pretty much exactly 100 Metres....

Just my opinion and certainly no offence meant :biggthump

No offence taken and in a “normal situation” I would agree with you completely, a map and a compass is the best way :0: … but picture yourself descending nearly 4,000 M down a mountain in the Bernese Oberland. You descend through thick clouds and then in to fog. You haven’t been able to come down the same way that you went up. You try to keep on a bearing but you don’t have any visual reference points and you can’t walk along looking at your compass as you may miss your step. When walking on the flat with out a visual aid most people will tend to stray to one side or the other, coming down a mountain doesn’t help this. You can’t count paces coming down either as when climbing you don’t actually have any. When you get to the bottom…which way do you go? You know the town is on a road 3 KM away on a bearing of 285 from where you started you assent but where are you now? Where do you get your bearings from? :hmmm:

You could of course camp up for the night and wait for all to clear up. You’ve got your kit with you. :chill: The search teams will be sent out for you as you’ve left a plan back at the Chalet and the Swiss teams are very good so they will find you. ack:

Or you could turn on the GPS, get your position and make your way home using your compass. As I said, it’s a back up…but a very useful one. Our lives weren't at risk but it did help ...and the bar was closing :trink26:

 

[Stevie]

I've just bought 1 today (Garmin Fortrex 201), I thought GPS was already at 3m accuracy although I've just started playing with mine, I haven't got aan accuaracy reading of better than 16m!!

The best I have had on mine in the Midlands is an accuracy of 17 feet but it does depend on how many satellites you are picking up and whether your kit is WAAS/EGNOS compatible. These are a couple of extra satellites that have been put up to calculate the drift and give a more precise location. :rolmao:

 

[Bob Hurley]

It wouldn't be particularly helpful here. Most of the people who get to pay the enormous rescue bills have a GPS, a cell phone, or both. That still doesn't get them home. That is, of course, compounded by the fact that neither device is reliable in our mountains due to spotty coverage.

I also don't think it adds anything to learning bushcraft.

 

[Pict]

I can recall one time that if I had a GPS we would have gone farther, maybe even foolishly. My daughter and I had climbed to the top of a large mountain here (Batatal) in winter. You wouldn’t think winter in Brazil is much to deal with but we were wet, the wind was blowing hard and the top of the mountain was covered in thick blowing fog. The temp was just above freezing with a below freezing windchill. These conditions are very rare here and really only occur on the mountaintops.

We had vertical walls extending to the right and left with a ramp in the middle that cut right to a little plateau. Another ramp cut to the left 200 meters to cross onto the top of the mountain. On a nice day it would have been a cakewalk after a long hard climb. The trouble was that if you didn’t find the top of that ramp again you couldn’t get down without a lot of searching along the cliff tops in the wind and fog. A GPS would have made that easy. As it was we turned around and let the mountain win, it did let us win on another day.

Later we heard that three 20-somethings were lost up there for three days in that same fog and freezing temps These three guys actually burned clothing to stay warm, go figure. They also got a hefty rescue bill. Mac

 

[stonyman]

I have a Garmin Etrex, but I still use the good old fashioned Silva compass and an up to date map, the GPs is very useful if I am out walking a so called guided walk in the Forest of Dean, not so good with the marker posts down there.

 

[arctic hobo]

No offence taken and in a “normal situation” I would agree with you completely, a map and a compass is the best way :0: … but picture yourself descending nearly 4,000 M down a mountain in the Bernese Oberland. You descend through thick clouds and then in to fog. You haven’t been able to come down the same way that you went up. You try to keep on a bearing but you don’t have any visual reference points and you can’t walk along looking at your compass as you may miss your step. When walking on the flat with out a visual aid most people will tend to stray to one side or the other, coming down a mountain doesn’t help this. You can’t count paces coming down either as when climbing you don’t actually have any. When you get to the bottom…which way do you go? You know the town is on a road 3 KM away on a bearing of 285 from where you started you assent but where are you now? Where do you get your bearings from? :hmmm:

I'm sorry but it is completely feasible to use a compass in fog. I have done many times without incident.
I agree with Phil in that GPS units may encourage lazy navigation as you always have something to fall back on... OK for the seasoned hillwalkers but people getting into walking will look at a GPS and think "Why use a map??". The way I see it.

 

[leon-1]

Well interesting thread.

GPS are a very good bit of kit, I like them, but they are an aid to navigation, they are not invaluable or a substitute for good navigational skills with map and compass. I do think that they can be used very effectively as a peice of safety equipment.

My reasoning is that when things go wrong, things can get badly out of control, and this includes the map reading side of life. If you want to extract a casualty quickly you will not want to be messing around with maps and GPS, when configured correctly, can be both fast, effective and reassuring. Even if the accuracy is down to 20 or 30 meters a helicopter will have no problems in finding you.

I have seen people who are very good at map reading dig themselves into a bigger hole than others because they will not believe that they have made a mistake, overconfidence can kill.

I have seen people on Fan Fawr get hopelessly lost in blizzard like conditions because they did'nt do the right thing and stop and wait it out. They tried to navigate in conditions which were nearly white out, this was due to overconfidence, if there had been a casualty and the mountain rescue had to come to a grid sent them they would of been miles away and the next chance to get them would be when those conditions abated.

GPS are not essential, they are a good backup and are good for verification and IMO a very good piece of safety kit

 

[innocent bystander]

I also have a GPS12 in as new condition. I don't really need it, but i still like having it. I like gadgets. But thats just me. I still use the map and compass anyway..

 

[Stevie]

I'm sorry but it is completely feasible to use a compass in fog. I have done many times without incident.
I agree with Phil in that GPS units may encourage lazy navigation as you always have something to fall back on... OK for the seasoned hillwalkers but people getting into walking will look at a GPS and think "Why use a map??". The way I see it.

Although I no longer live in the mountains, for my (and possibly other's) future reference please enlighten me how it should be done in such a situation :super: :super:

 

[arctic hobo]

I presume you mean navigating in fog. Well as to following a bearing, you simply find it and walk, and of course check regularly to ensure you are on course.
Usually it's easy to tell where you're going in mountainous terrain, as you simply need to study the map carefully and you can tell which way you're going. You should go slowly of course, as if you lose concentration and just charge off you are bound to get lost. There's a technique called "aspect of slope" where you you point the compass straight downhill and it tells you where around a hillside you are. Following easy features like streams or ridges is also good as you know exactly where you are and where you're going (provided of course they are on the map!). And working to a waypoint style system ensures that if you do get lost you know fairly precisely where you are.
As I mentioned I am lucky in how easily I visualise terrain from a map, but I'm sure anyone can learn with just simple practice. Basically the thing to remember is that the contours are your friend; other things may come and go, and contours are harder to read than roads, but learn them and you'll never go wrong.
If the terrain is flat and featureless, you use a method that is slow but effective: one man walks on to the edge of visibility while the other sights his bearing and tells him left or right - I remember one incident in Norway that had us calling "til høyre!" "til venstre!" to each other for hours on end across a huge glacier (one place you don't want to go wrong!)... it's slow but it works.
There's probably more that I've forgotten :roll:

 

[Stevie]

I presume you mean navigating in fog. Well as to following a bearing, you simply find it and walk, and of course check regularly to ensure you are on course.
Usually it's easy to tell where you're going in mountainous terrain, as you simply need to study the map carefully and you can tell which way you're going. You should go slowly of course, as if you lose concentration and just charge off you are bound to get lost. There's a technique called "aspect of slope" where you you point the compass straight downhill and it tells you where around a hillside you are. Following easy features like streams or ridges is also good as you know exactly where you are and where you're going (provided of course they are on the map!). And working to a waypoint style system ensures that if you do get lost you know fairly precisely where you are.
As I mentioned I am lucky in how easily I visualise terrain from a map, but I'm sure anyone can learn with just simple practice. Basically the thing to remember is that the contours are your friend; other things may come and go, and contours are harder to read than roads, but learn them and you'll never go wrong.
If the terrain is flat and featureless, you use a method that is slow but effective: one man walks on to the edge of visibility while the other sights his bearing and tells him left or right - I remember one incident in Norway that had us calling "til høyre!" "til venstre!" to each other for hours on end across a huge glacier (one place you don't want to go wrong!)... it's slow but it works.
There's probably more that I've forgotten :roll:

I agree with what you have said for following a bearing in fog. I too have used the “shouting method” on glaciers. We called the lead person the sacrificial goat because if he disappeared you knew you had found the edge. ): But this answer appears to assume that you know what bearing you need to get to your destination. What if, as in the situation I described earlier, you do not know your current location and have no visual reference points with which to calculate it?

In Switzerland we still have National Service and navigation training is standard. Those of us who went in to the Air Force did so in greater detail. Although aircraft have inertial navigation systems basic ground navigation is also taught for what I think is called over here “Escape and Evade”. Although you have a rough idea where you are from you flight plan / target / egress course you don’t know exactly where you are until you fix your position. Until you are able to do so you do not rush around or head off on what was your old heading as it could lead you in to trouble rather than home. T:

Also Ordnance Survey Maps are a lot better than those you find abroad. :ekt: Like many of you, I have used maps with out any contour lines on and just show the very basic details such as towns, rivers and major roads. Here you have to rely upon your compass, your note book and your pedometer / step count but you do have the opportunity to triangulate your position and then choose an appropriate visual marker or way point as you call it for your bearing. Such is not possible in fog. :?:

 

[alick]

Map and compass first for me, but I'm thinking of getting GPS (i) for help with in-car nav and (ii) for bushcraft to help me find my way back to interesting trees / fungus / plants etc in a decent sized wood that I don't know well enough.

I'm looking at a mini GPS / bluetooth "mouse" that will work with memory map software on a laptop and with a Sony Clié PDA since I have all these already.

 

[bambodoggy]

I agree with what you have said for following a bearing in fog. I too have used the “shouting method” on glaciers. We called the lead person the sacrificial goat because if he disappeared you knew you had found the edge. ): But this answer appears to assume that you know what bearing you need to get to your destination. What if, as in the situation I described earlier, you do not know your current location and have no visual reference points with which to calculate it?

In Switzerland we still have National Service and navigation training is standard. Those of us who went in to the Air Force did so in greater detail. Although aircraft have inertial navigation systems basic ground navigation is also taught for what I think is called over here “Escape and Evade”. Although you have a rough idea where you are from you flight plan / target / egress course you don’t know exactly where you are until you fix your position. Until you are able to do so you do not rush around or head off on what was your old heading as it could lead you in to trouble rather than home. T:

Also Ordnance Survey Maps are a lot better than those you find abroad. :ekt: Like many of you, I have used maps with out any contour lines on and just show the very basic details such as towns, rivers and major roads. Here you have to rely upon your compass, your note book and your pedometer / step count but you do have the opportunity to triangulate your position and then choose an appropriate visual marker or way point as you call it for your bearing. Such is not possible in fog. :?:

Steve, I'm sorry to be pedantic about this but I have a bit of a thing for hot nav skills..... so...

The fog you describe didn't just switch itself on like a light, as the fog comes in then so you make your current point the waypoint you work from (so you do know your current position). If you went out from the start in the fog then the start point is your first way point. Either way you will always know where you last were and were you are now, as I'm sure you'll agree this is elementary in whatever you are doing in the mountains. You clearly have great experience in the mountains so you will have noticed the fog coming in and prepared yourself acordingly. Had you carried out the pinpoint nav skills that Chris talks about below and you clearly are more than familiar with then you would have had no need of the GPS to tell you were you were at any given point along the route you have taken.

Imagine a situation with somebody in the hills who has a GPS but doesn't have the same traditional skills you and I have, they aren't watching their surroundings, keeping tabs on the weather, their last waypoint (physical rather than gps) and concentrating on the route ahead, maybe they missed the fog coming in so fast because they had their head down scrutinizing the GPS waiting for a full SAT lock...the next thing...bam, they are in your position, the fog has arrived...and just at that point the SAT's go offline, the GPS batteries run out, the walker trips and breaks the GPS or any other reason why these things break and usually when you need them most. Now you or I could Navigate safely off that Mountain still, albeit rather slowly and painstakingly... but could the lesser skilled walker?

Don't get me wrong, as I said below I have one and it lives in my bergan... Had I been in your position I think it fairly likely that I'd have got it out and used it as you did....but only for speed, convenience (last orders and all that ) and for the fact that I could because it was there. Had I been in your position without it, having the skills we have would have meant it made no odds to me one way or the other. A few extra hours as the going is a little slower but the same end result. And I'd also venture to say that had I been using my map and compass and awareness of my surroudings I cannot see how I would have got into that situation in the first place.

This is maybe what I mean about not needing them as a backup and the importance of traditional skills....

I don't think any of us disagree on that... in short, as you say handy and convenient but definitely not nessarsary...and in extreme cases...possibly dangerous... :biggthump

 

[RovingArcher]

I don't care for them. I'm not much for trusting my life to something that needs batteries and I'm not one that cares much for pushing buttons. Yeah, I'm sitting at a puter :roll: Besides, there is something to be said about getting lost. :shock:

 

[Stevie]

Steve, I'm sorry to be pedantic about this but I have a bit of a thing for hot nav skills..... so...

The fog you describe didn't just switch itself on like a light, as the fog comes in then so you make your current point the waypoint you work from (so you do know your current position). If you went out from the start in the fog then the start point is your first way point. Either way you will always know where you last were and were you are now, as I'm sure you'll agree this is elementary in whatever you are doing in the mountains. You clearly have great experience in the mountains so you will have noticed the fog coming in and prepared yourself acordingly. Had you carried out the pinpoint nav skills that Chris talks about below and you clearly are more than familiar with then you would have had no need of the GPS to tell you were you were at any given point along the route you have taken.

Imagine a situation with somebody in the hills who has a GPS but doesn't have the same traditional skills you and I have, they aren't watching their surroundings, keeping tabs on the weather, their last waypoint (physical rather than gps) and concentrating on the route ahead, maybe they missed the fog coming in so fast because they had their head down scrutinizing the GPS waiting for a full SAT lock...the next thing...bam, they are in your position, the fog has arrived...and just at that point the SAT's go offline, the GPS batteries run out, the walker trips and breaks the GPS or any other reason why these things break and usually when you need them most. Now you or I could Navigate safely off that Mountain still, albeit rather slowly and painstakingly... but could the lesser skilled walker?

Don't get me wrong, as I said below I have one and it lives in my bergan... Had I been in your position I think it fairly likely that I'd have got it out and used it as you did....but only for speed, convenience (last orders and all that ) and for the fact that I could because it was there. Had I been in your position without it, having the skills we have would have meant it made no odds to me one way or the other. A few extra hours as the going is a little slower but the same end result. And I'd also venture to say that had I been using my map and compass and awareness of my surroudings I cannot see how I would have got into that situation in the first place.

This is maybe what I mean about not needing them as a backup and the importance of traditional skills....

I don't think any of us disagree on that... in short, as you say handy and convenient but definitely not nessarsary...and in extreme cases...possibly dangerous... :biggthump

Hi Bambodoggy,

Actually the fog did just appear, it was there whan I came out of the clouds (or did the cloud just get thicker ) :rolmao: never mind let us move on. As before, I agree with what you have said but the point I try to emphasise is that GPS is a tool and nothing more. How we use the tool is where the skill and training comes in. :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy

As with all walks of life there are the “Traditionalist”, the “Modernist” and the “Technophile”.

The “Traditionalist” is an important part of the “community” and keeps the old ways alive. They have the skills and knowledge that need to be passed on or it will be lost and we will be worse off with out it. :ekt:

The “Technophile” wants every thing that is new. They will get every gadget that is made mistakenly thinking it will give him the advantage over the “Traditionalist”. :stupid:

The “Modernist” I like to think comes in between. He wants to learn and use the old ways but will use some new ones as well. He just tries to balance both. If we were all pure “Traditionalists” then we would still have flint knives rather than the North Star: we would have bear skins rather than Gore-Tex; we would wrap our kit in skins rather than the rucksack and worse still Imported Larger would not exist (and sorry but I for one can not get used to Bitter or Mild ).

We all have our opinions, I believe there is a place for GPS but like many have said, like any other tool it should be used wisely. People are trained to use a compass; they should also seek training to use a GPS.

To throw another log on the fire, my watch has a digital compass built in but I still carry two compasses and the GPS when I go out. Am I scared of getting last or what?? :Crazy_071