philosiphy and its quierys

  • Come along to the amazing Summer Moot (21st July - 2nd August), a festival of bushcrafting and camping in a beautiful woodland PLEASE CLICK HERE for more information.
Well, no. There is a considerable difference between humans and other animals. I don't disagree that humans are animals, but I certainly disagree that humans are the same as other animals. If you can't recognize the difference in our society, culture, arts, sciences, mathematics, philosophy, psychology, politics, et cetera (not quite ad infinitum but for a while at least) then I think that you're not paying attention! Whether you think these things make us better or worse than animals is ultimately irrelevant; we are still not 'just animals'. We have a planet, biological functions and some instincts in common but very little more. It doesn't mean that we have a divine gift, nor does it mean that nothing in the universe will ever compare to our blinding brilliance. Just means we're different.

Everything you listed is a function of us trying to make sense of the world and live in it. Nothing here to show we are anything but just animals. What would being more than just animal even mean? Dolphins have language. Are they just animals? Ants have complex living arrangements. Are they more than just animals? Our attempts may be more sophisticated but still just the actions of animals. Biologically, there is no such thing as more than just animal.


I think you're more 'being' orientated by my definition yes?
Interestingly I wrote not that long ago a short essay/article regarding the differences between Atheism, Agnostic Atheism, Agnostic Theism and Theism. Religion isn't inherently bad and science isn't inherently good; dogmas of course do exist in science and you'll find quite a few scientists these days who set out to prove or justify X rather than find the truth. Insisting that religion is nonsense/there is no possibility of a deity/etc is no more logical or empirical than insisting that there is.

Science doesn't answer everything, and really I don't see why it should. That's why questions such as "Why are we here?" "Is there a god?" and "What happens when we die?" are ultimate questions rather than stupid questions.

I didn't say religion was good or bad, I said it was nonsense. The only sensible way to investigate the world is through the principles of peer reviewed scientific methods. Any scientist cheating in order to prove a theory will be found out as soon as the study is peer reviewed and other scientists cannot produce the same results. This is why it is not dogmatic the way revealed wisdom is.

Actually it is very logical to dismiss the possibility of a deity. It is an illogical proposition (I will expand if necessary). Certainly we must allow the possibility of a deity, however because something is possible does not make it as probable as everything else. The two positions are not equiprobable. Of course we must all be technically agnostic however one can be a de facto atheist in that one lives under the assumption there is no god.

Your ultimate questions can in principal be answered by science and certainly more likely that than by any other means I can think of.

For the record, I am not that religious and the conclusion to which the aforementioned article came is that Atheism is the Religion of Postmodernism.

Nonsense. Atheism has nothing to do with postmodernism. It is postmodernist to argue that all possibilities are equal. Atheism cannot, by definition, be dogmatic or like a religion as it is simply a lack of belief and has no articles of faith. Your conclusion therefore was flawed.
 
Science seeks for the truth as best it can.

"Why are we here?" We are here, there does not have to be a "reason".

"Is there a god?" We don't and can't know but due to the total lack of any evidence for a god, the safe assumption is no.

"What happens when we die?" We decay and are recycled.
You're taking metaphysical questions and giving literal answers. To say that you missed the point would be an understatement.

Atheism cannot be regarded as a religion. There is no central dogma, no handbook, no faith, no belief. Atheism is a religion like NOT collecting stamps is a hobby.
Nonsense. Atheism has nothing to do with postmodernism. It is postmodernist to argue that all possibilities are equal. Atheism cannot, by definition, be dogmatic or like a religion as it is simply a lack of belief and has no articles of faith. Your conclusion therefore was flawed.
Well actually I was making the point that some people adhere to atheism religiously. That the assertion that there is certainly no god is a belief, not a fact (will go into why Atheism is a belief later). I chose to say "Religion of Postmodernism" because postmodernism often presents points ironically.

Everything you listed is a function of us trying to make sense of the world and live in it. Nothing here to show we are anything but just animals. What would being more than just animal even mean? Dolphins have language. Are they just animals? Ants have complex living arrangements. Are they more than just animals? Our attempts may be more sophisticated but still just the actions of animals. Biologically, there is no such thing as more than just animal.
Do Dolphins write symphonies and plays? Do Ants design and create grandiose (if pointless) architectural feats? No, they don't. Wolves coordinate and cooperate in groups but it doesn't make it the same as a baseball team, does it? The simple fact that we DO try to make sense of the world around us shows that we are different from other animals. I know that biologically we are basically the same, that's why I said that we have biological functions in common.

I didn't say religion was good or bad, I said it was nonsense. The only sensible way to investigate the world is through the principles of peer reviewed scientific methods. Any scientist cheating in order to prove a theory will be found out as soon as the study is peer reviewed and other scientists cannot produce the same results. This is why it is not dogmatic the way revealed wisdom is.
Religion answers metaphysical questions rather than physical ones - if you try to interchange them, then yes, you will likely get nonsense in return such as the suggestion that the universe is a few thousand years old. That doesn't make Religion nonsense; Religion served a remarkable purpose for a period of time when science didn't exist in any recognizable form. It has comforted millions (if not billions) of people over millenia and that alone is a reasonable enough reason to me for it to not be considered "nonsense" whether you believe in it or not. So again: Religion and Science do not serve the same purpose, they deal with completely different worlds. A Scientist's opinion on Religion is only as valid as a Priest's opinion on Quantum Theory. Either declaring the other as nonsense is a result of arrogance, not enlightenment.

Actually it is very logical to dismiss the possibility of a deity. It is an illogical proposition (I will expand if necessary). Certainly we must allow the possibility of a deity, however because something is possible does not make it as probable as everything else. The two positions are not equiprobable. Of course we must all be technically agnostic however one can be a de facto atheist in that one lives under the assumption there is no god.
I disagree again, though more semantically. An atheists believes that there is no God. An Agnostic Atheist (generally just called an Agnostic as Agnostic Theists don't seem all that common) does not believe in a deity but accepts that it is impossible to know for sure. So I disagree on principle that "is is very logical to dismiss the possibility of a deity". Atheism is a belief system, Agnostic is a lack of a belief system.

Your ultimate questions can in principal be answered by science and certainly more likely that than by any other means I can think of.
Well you could provide an answer like the ones provided above but again the point will have been completely missed. You can say "there is no afterlife" but you're not dead, so you don't actually know. Science has contributed nothing to the answer, it's just an answer based on the lack of physical proof to a question that doesn't have a provable answer. It's a matter of belief, not knowledge.
 
You're taking metaphysical questions and giving literal answers. To say that you missed the point would be an understatement.

There is no point to the questions therefore a literal answer seems most appropriate.:rolleyes:

Atheism is a belief system, Agnostic is a lack of a belief system.
Agnostics are hedging their bets, or are accommodationist.

Atheists don't believe in the existence of supernatural beings.

As it is not possible to prove that god does not exist, it is necessary to state one's disbelief in the terms that, in the absence of any evidence at all for the existence it is reasonable to disregard that possibility.
 
Do Dolphins write symphonies and plays?

Do you know that they don't?

Do Ants design and create grandiose (if pointless) architectural feats?

Yes, they do.

Religion answers metaphysical questions rather than physical ones - if you try to interchange them, then yes, you will likely get nonsense in return such as the suggestion that the universe is a few thousand years old. That doesn't make Religion nonsense; Religion served a remarkable purpose for a period of time when science didn't exist in any recognizable form. It has comforted millions (if not billions) of people over millenia and that alone is a reasonable enough reason to me for it to not be considered "nonsense" whether you believe in it or not. So again: Religion and Science do not serve the same purpose, they deal with completely different worlds. A Scientist's opinion on Religion is only as valid as a Priest's opinion on Quantum Theory. Either declaring the other as nonsense is a result of arrogance, not enlightenment.

Because something is comforting does not make it true and does not stop it being dangerous. A scientist can answer questions about historical truth and physical possibilities, both pertain to the question of religion. Anyone not relying on the scientific method is just making stuff up. Without evidence we can believe anything. Can you disprove invisible pink unicorns? Russels teapot? Just because something can be formed as a question does not mean that question deserves an answer. To ask the point of a human is the same as asking the point of a mountain. Both are silly questions. I would no more take seriously a priests opinion about the soul than a fairyologists opinion about the colour of fairy wings. It's all just made up.


I disagree again, though more semantically. An atheists believes that there is no God. An Agnostic Atheist (generally just called an Agnostic as Agnostic Theists don't seem all that common) does not believe in a deity but accepts that it is impossible to know for sure. So I disagree on principle that "is is very logical to dismiss the possibility of a deity". Atheism is a belief system, Agnostic is a lack of a belief system.

You are simply wrong. You are changing the meaning of the word atheism to suit your argument. An atheist does not believe. The derivation of the word is Greek and comes from atheos (without gods). Note the negative, without belief in gods not a positive disbelief. The burden of proof is with those who believe and assert gods, souls etc. Show me some evidence and I will change my mind (along with the whole of physics, chemistry, biology, geology etc). Because I said so/feel it in my water/dreamed/read it just won't cut it anymore.

My dismissal of the positing of a deity as illogical was not based on this but on the fact that there is no evidence whatsoever from anyone, anywhere, ever for the proposition and even more than that, the universe is a much different place than it should be if there were a designer.

“As long as people believe in absurdities they will continue to commit atrocities” Voltaire.
 
Because something is comforting does not make it true and does not stop it being dangerous. A scientist can answer questions about historical truth and physical possibilities, both pertain to the question of religion. Anyone not relying on the scientific method is just making stuff up. Without evidence we can believe anything. Can you disprove invisible pink unicorns? Russels teapot? Just because something can be formed as a question does not mean that question deserves an answer. To ask the point of a human is the same as asking the point of a mountain. Both are silly questions. I would no more take seriously a priests opinion about the soul than a fairyologists opinion about the colour of fairy wings. It's all just made up.

And used as a method of control by evil, power hungry men for as long as man has existed.:(
 
There is no point to the questions therefore a literal answer seems most appropriate.:rolleyes:
The number of religious people in the world suggests the consensus to be that there is a god, is an afterlife and is a purpose to life. So you're outvoted on that one.

As it is not possible to prove that god does not exist, it is necessary to state one's disbelief in the terms that, in the absence of any evidence at all for the existence it is reasonable to disregard that possibility.
It is reasonable to not believe in a god. Believing there isn't one is no more reasonable than believing there is. And tbh I don't care if people believe that there is no god - I care when people who believe that there is no god bash people who believe in a God/bash religion because it doesn't speak to them.

Agnostics are hedging their bets, or are accommodationist.

Atheists don't believe in the existence of supernatural beings.

You are simply wrong. You are changing the meaning of the word atheism to suit your argument. An atheist does not believe. The derivation of the word is Greek and comes from atheos (without gods). Note the negative, without belief in gods not a positive disbelief. The burden of proof is with those who believe and assert gods, souls etc. Show me some evidence and I will change my mind (along with the whole of physics, chemistry, biology, geology etc). Because I said so/feel it in my water/dreamed/read it just won't cut it anymore.
No, I'm not changing the meaning of the word. From Merriam-Webster:
Main Entry: athe·ist
Pronunciation: \ˈā-thē-ist\
Function: noun
Date: 1551

: one who believes that there is no deity
If you want to debate with them, then I'm sure the website has contact info.
The root of the word is irrelevant. The root of the word "testicle" is "testis" meaning "witness" - take from that what you will.

Do you know that they don't?
No - however, there is no evidence that they do and that IS an answerable question.

Yes, they do.
Source?

Because something is comforting does not make it true and does not stop it being dangerous.
I didn't say that it makes it true, I said it makes it something other than nonsense. Anything can be dangerous, including science. If you think that nobody has ever been killed by a nutter in the name of science, you need a history lesson. And you might want to look up the Milgram experiment. Most people are ok with immoral behaviour when instructed by an authority figure. It happening with religion was obviously going to happen at some point, given that it held enormous sway for a very long time.

A scientist can answer questions about historical truth and physical possibilities, both pertain to the question of religion. Anyone not relying on the scientific method is just making stuff up. Without evidence we can believe anything. Can you disprove invisible pink unicorns? Russels teapot? Just because something can be formed as a question does not mean that question deserves an answer. To ask the point of a human is the same as asking the point of a mountain. Both are silly questions. I would no more take seriously a priests opinion about the soul than a fairyologists opinion about the colour of fairy wings. It's all just made up.
No, I cannot disprove those things. Nor am I inclined to argue with people who believe in them. But that argument doesn't prove anything, it's just something people say so they can giggle to themselves and feel smug and superior.
You think that it's made up. I believe in the soul; if you don't, fine. But I haven't told you that the soul is real, so don't tell me that "it's all just made up".




My dismissal of the positing of a deity as illogical was not based on this but on the fact that there is no evidence whatsoever from anyone, anywhere, ever for the proposition and even more than that, the universe is a much different place than it should be if there were a designer.

“As long as people believe in absurdities they will continue to commit atrocities” Voltaire.
How "should" it be if there were a designer?
 
The number of religious people in the world suggests the consensus to be that there is a god, is an afterlife and is a purpose to life. So you're outvoted on that one.

If you made a point there I missed it. That there are a lot of scared, confused or deluded people is not an argument. Evidence of anything supernatural ever would be.


No, I'm not changing the meaning of the word. From Merriam-Webster:

If you want to debate with them, then I'm sure the website has contact info.
The root of the word is irrelevant. The root of the word "testicle" is "testis" meaning "witness" - take from that what you will.

Merriam who? They are wrong too then. The root of testicle is witness (of virility). I take from it that the root of a word gives clues to it's intended meaning.



Errr, any ant nest anywhere ever. This one for instance http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?i...org.mozilla:en-US:official&ndsp=18&tbs=isch:1

I didn't say that it makes it true, I said it makes it something other than nonsense. Anything can be dangerous, including science. If you think that nobody has ever been killed by a nutter in the name of science, you need a history lesson. And you might want to look up the Milgram experiment. Most people are ok with immoral behaviour when instructed by an authority figure. It happening with religion was obviously going to happen at some point, given that it held enormous sway for a very long time.

The Milgram experiment said nothing about what most people are ok with. If religion is the word of a god capable of creating all this then shouldn't it be holding itself to a higher standard? You are making my point for me here. Man is an animal with animal instincts pretending god says it's ok to rape kids etc. Certainly anything can be dangerous but with a divine mandate we can get properly nasty.


No, I cannot disprove those things. Nor am I inclined to argue with people who believe in them. But that argument doesn't prove anything, it's just something people say so they can giggle to themselves and feel smug and superior.
You think that it's made up. I believe in the soul; if you don't, fine. But I haven't told you that the soul is real, so don't tell me that "it's all just made up".

No, they are thought experiments intended to show establish a proposition as part of a debate. I am far from giggling when I think of the religious nutjobs who want to bring on the end of days prophecy and if you are feeling inferior then it is your own problem. Taking offense is the only defence when irrational belief is faced with rational explanation.


How "should" it be if there were a designer?

Errr, not full of kids being ripped apart by dogs, cancer, millions of lifeless planets, design flaws in the human body etc.
 
"Is there a god?" We don't and can't know but due to the total lack of any evidence for a god, the safe assumption is no.

Oh but we do know Mike, we know quite a lot about it actually just not whats on the other side of it.

You see, what is known as god or the creator of all things is actually the singularity at the centre of our galaxy that all that is in our galaxy is born from, and through which all in our galaxy is changed from ( evoloution). There are 5 points in our galaxy where energy comes "from" the singularity and 5 areas where energy flows into the singularity. Each has different effects upon what passes through it. All 10 phases happen in a 26000 year period or one revoloution of the galaxy.
 
If you made a point there I missed it. That there are a lot of scared, confused or deluded people is not an argument. Evidence of anything supernatural ever would be.
The point is that the general consensus confirms that the questions do have points.

Merriam who? They are wrong too then. The root of testicle is witness (of virility). I take from it that the root of a word gives clues to it's intended meaning.
Merriam-Webster is a dictionary. From Oxford if you prefer:
atheism

/aythi-iz’m/

• noun the belief that God does not exist.


You're right; the Statue of Liberty, Eiffel Tower and Empire State Building are card castles compared to that. I wonder, do you think that the ants used knowledge and creativity or pure instinct?

The Milgram experiment said nothing about what most people are ok with. If religion is the word of a god capable of creating all this then shouldn't it be holding itself to a higher standard? You are making my point for me here. Man is an animal with animal instincts pretending god says it's ok to rape kids etc. Certainly anything can be dangerous but with a divine mandate we can get properly nasty.
The Milgram experiment proved that most people are willing to do things they know are wrong because they're told to - in the actual experiment, the people even knew that there were no consequences if they halted the experiment - it wasn't a religious leader, politician or soldier - just a scientist. Man perverting religion for immoral purposes is not an argument against Theism or Religion, it's just an argument that not all people are good - a fact which I'm not arguing. A closer to home example; knives. Religion and knives can be perverted to cause harm. Let's ban all knives eh?

No, they are thought experiments intended to show establish a proposition as part of a debate. I am far from giggling when I think of the religious nutjobs who want to bring on the end of days prophecy and if you are feeling inferior then it is your own problem. Taking offense is the only defence when irrational belief is faced with rational explanation.
Again, "religious nutjobs" - a religious nutjob is just a nutjob who believes in something. Religion can be used to corrupt people but AGAIN it's not Religion that's doing the actual corrupting, it's man.
I can assure you, I don't feel inferior, so don't put words in my mouth. Implying someone else feels superior is not the same as saying you feel inferior. And c'mon, get real - saying someone's belief "is all just made up" is hardly "rational explanation".

Errr, not full of kids being ripped apart by dogs, cancer, millions of lifeless planets, design flaws in the human body etc.
What, you want Eden? Read Genesis.

Pete
 
I have not read through a lot of this thread as it is exceptionally dense, and i am a lazy lazy man :D

But i would propose instead of a concept of being; one might consider life by the maxim of becoming

The difference being that one is static and 'perfect'; while the other is dynamic and creative - allowing people to create and define new identities (as we all do) as they wish, to experiment, and taste variety. Rather than attempt in vain, to realise some misplaced, and unobtainable notion of perfect existence.

I posit that perfection, truth and anything pertaining to either is a lie; and furthermore that they are harmful, as they place false constraints on life and the world, which are without rules or laws; and are instead formed by habits.

Habits can be changed, laws cannot.

Embrace change.

Embrace chaos.

Embrace fun.

Embrace becoming, and difference.

Imperfection is perfection. Incompleteness is complete. :D :D :D :D

:240: :240: :420:
 
I care when people who believe that there is no god bash people who believe in a God/bash religion because it doesn't speak to them.

You have got that absolutely **** about face.

Read the bible, I have. "the lord thy god is a jealous god" "leave no living thing alive".

Your book of rules is full of the most evil instructions to inflict genocide and destruction on anyone who does not believe in "the one true god"

The Abrahamic religions are bronze age desert death cults and the quicker we consign them to ancient history, where they belong, the better for humanity.

I have no problem with any individual holding whatever belief they chose to.

I have a MAJOR problem with anyone who tries to make me conform to their book of rules. Bishops in parliament, christian MPs making rules based on their brand of superstition, "respect" demanded for religious beliefs that run contrary to current statute.

That said I withdraw from the thread.:)
 
You have got that absolutely **** about face.

Read the bible, I have. "the lord thy god is a jealous god" "leave no living thing alive".

Your book of rules is full of the most evil instructions to inflict genocide and destruction on anyone who does not believe in "the one true god"
Put it into context. After you've done that, list a recent act of genocide committed by the Church. Horrible things have been done by the Church and in the name of God - but not only were they done in a time when horrible things were done as a matter of course, but at a time when Religion was little more than a political tool. They were not done because of religion, they were done because of plain old human malevolence and ignorance. It's not justifiable, nor is the Church's role in it justifiable, but in a world where virtually everyone believes in something, it's easy to blame beliefs.

The Abrahamic religions are bronze age desert death cults and the quicker we consign them to ancient history, where they belong, the better for humanity.
In your opinion.

I have no problem with any individual holding whatever belief they chose to.
You clearly do, given that all I did before arguments started was state my opinion.

I have a MAJOR problem with anyone who tries to make me conform to their book of rules.
Something I didn't do.

Bishops in parliament, christian MPs making rules based on their brand of superstition,
I agree with the bishops in parliament bit, and I don't see why an MP's opinion should be void if they're a Christian. You're clearly not half as tolerant as you claim. The majority of people are not Atheists and it is unreasonable to say that a religious person's opinion is bad because they're religious.

"respect" demanded for religious beliefs that run contrary to current statute.
That I agree with.
 

BCUK Shop

We have a a number of knives, T-Shirts and other items for sale.

SHOP HERE