a worrying trend towards orthodoxy?

[tomtom]

Here we go again..

This topic comes up time and again. My view is this, we communicate what good kit we find, people buy what is recommended there is nothing wrong with that, in fact its good practice, it helps you get decent kit for your money. Add to this the fact that there are not hundreds of companies making kit specifically for bushcrafters.. so when there is good, suitable stuff available its hardly a surprise people end up with the same stuff. I think orthodoxy is probably the very last reason for it.

 

[Mikey P]

You could get the Laplander saw (one you missed their Mikey P lol) or, like me the super cheapo £3 pruning saw (which my brother says is better).

Kev

Gah! I can't believe I missed the Laplander!

Jasons - if we are not to worry about what kit other people are using, then why is the 'Kit' thread on this forum both the most popular and the most heavily populated? Look at the numbers.

And, yes, there definitely has been some inverse snobbery going on on this forum: there have been a number of heated discussions on the BCUK forum about the cost of AW Woodlore knives, particularly those that are being sold on eBay. Comments along the line of 'anyone who pays that much for a knife must be mad or stupid - you can get a Mora for seven quid'. Like it or not, that is inverse snobbery. People have been heavily criticised for buying expensive kit and it works at all levels. Examples?: iodine drops - water filters; cheap old canvas army surplus rucksacks - Berghaus Vulcans/Karrimore Sabres; ex-army boots - Lowe/Altberg/Meindl/etc; B&Q axe - Gransfors SFA; etc.

 

[leon-1]

I don't knoiw about orthodox.

People use the same kit for a reason, normally because they have either seen it in use or have been recommended by a friend or someone they respect, that's normal. Another reason for people using the same thing is supply and demand, if the kit that has been recommended is of a reasonable price and can be produced in a reasonable quantity then people will buy it as long as they can get their hands on it, the internet plays quite a part in this.

I have a Ventile Jacket, but you cannot buy one as it's not produced any more, I have the GB hunters axe, but I also have a Fiskars, a Norlund and a Mitchell "Old Faithfull" amongst others. I have the F1, but I also have knives by Gene Ingram, Allan Blade, Stuart Mitchell and many others. I have saws by Gerber, Opinel and Bahco.

I have Zebra Billy Cans, MSR, I have snow peak titanium gear, ultralight tents, Hoochie's and Tarps of all types. I have gas stoves and meths burners and homemade stoves. I have Karrimor packs including the sabre45 (which I have been using since they originally came out).

I don't however use what is popular I use what I like and what's comfortable for me. Yes I have a possibles pouches, but I made them, yes I have a leather belts, but I made those as well, yes I have an F1, but I made the handle and the sheath.

There is nothing wrong with wearing and using what others use as long as it does what you want it to do. If it doesn't then either modify it or get someone who can modify it for you. There can never be a uniform when people make or modify their own kit as nothing will ever be standard.

 

[andy_e]

It's funny, I've only been at the one meet and I can only assume that it was fairly typical - but whatever gets said on the forum by some people, what I found in practice is that it was often the kit that was home-made or a bit different that was admired and commented on. There was a genuine interest in what other people were bringing to the party, regardless of brand/cost/size. If someone had something that was interesting or looked useful then people tended to want to have a look or a play. I think that's a better measure of the true feeling here, I don't think that snobbery or orthodoxy for that matter is really what the majority of us are about.

 

[PIDDOCK]

Way I see it is there are three types of bushcrafter,

1. The old hand who has everything that works for him.

2. The dreamer who has everything that works for the Old hand

3. The new guy who has everything the dreamer tells him works but who aims the get everything the old hand uses.

As for snobbery I guess its a part of the human condition, some of these replies above say they dont see snobbery, some say its inverted, each is a kind of snobbery in itself as are the posts by people who claim to use nothing used by the rest of the bushcraft Sheeple!

I think its sad people seem to be so preoccupied by the whats, (what kit does Ray mears use, whats the best axe, whats the best hammock or knife or cook pot) and dont spend enough time in the wheres (where I went and did this or where I went and did that, where I carved a ............ or where I saw my first Wolf or deer or whatever)

Some times I wonder if we should not call it Kitcraft rather than bushcraft.

 

[Grooveski]

...each is a kind of snobbery in itself as are the posts by people who claim to use nothing used by the rest of the bushcraft Sheeple!

As one of the folk who said that I didn't have any of the above, don't get me wrong:

I'd love a swandrie wooly pullover. They look seriously comfy but I don't do enough in winter to justify one.
I'd love a Tahr jacket. They have a lovely cut but the price gives me the screaming meambies.
I'd love a lot of the kit I see at meets. Quite often I see gear that is superior to that which I use but the point is I already have gear that does me fine. It may not be top notch but it does the job.

I wouldn't avoid any particular item just because it was seen as a bushcrafty item and sure as hell wouldn't ever think of anyone as sheeple.

I agree with Andy_Es post. Every word of it.

 

[Tadpole]

My grand father taught me something that I feel is still true and apt today. “Learn from others mistakes, you will not live long enough to learn every thing from your own mistakes”
Sure, I listen to the recommendations of all the people on this site, and yes, it has affected thing that I have sought and bought. Mainly because I have next to no money spare, and whereas some might think it is ok to ‘waste’ £40 on an axe that turns out to be naff, I cannot. So if someone on this site, someone whose opinion I respect, says x is a good axe then I will buy x. Generally I have found that the people who do,(use they thinks they buy, axes, knives, stoves, tents, what-evers) tend to understand, and those that don’t use them, people who are only kit junkies, tend to not to.
British red uses his axes, and knows his axes; he has proved that time and again. So were I after an ‘expensive axe’ (expensive to me that is, to some most axes cost don’t cost more than a few hours pay) I would more than likely go by what he recommends. Knives are the same, were I in the market for an expensive knife I would find someone who knows all about knives, Old jimbo for example.

I’m not a sheep following the herd, I just don’t have money to waste buying a shed load of gear and ‘forming my own opinion’. However I have never bought something just because others have it, I buy kit that I need for my style of hedgehopping, my style of camping.
“I am an experiment of one, there is no one like me, nor will there ever be”

 

[Scots_Charles_River]

Axe - cheap Band Q one.

SS Pots - there was contensious issues about ALu post and helath risks.

Nick

 

[leon-1]

My point is I have a shed load of kit, it has been bought and made over the years and it hasn't been because other people have the same, it's been trial and error.

Finding a setup that I like.

Others probably don't want to endure some of the soakings, hardships and failures that I have gone through over the years and so they buy kit which is trialled and tested, I can understand that.

There is nothing about "sheeple" in it, it is practicality. The money and time that I have invested in getting my setup exactly how I want or like aren't always available to other people.

In a lot of ways it is a lot more practical to go out and buy something that you know will fit the bill in 80 percent of occasions than it is to go out and buy something to trial or got out and design and make the stuff yourself.

That's part of being human we learn from our mistakes and we learn from each other.

And anyway who cares if someone decides to copy you by buying one piece of kit or another that you have, isn't it a complement in a way. Doesn't it show that people trust your opinion?

 

[Ogri the trog]

As a bit of a leveler,
The "Here" that we use when we talk about "us" as a group is a "virtual" thing. If you were to poll the folk who live in your street, I have no doubt that the averages for all sorts of things would show up. "This place" is a Bushcraft website where like-minded people can discuss their chosen hobby and listen to what other bushcrafters have found to be of use and also what kit to avoid. The consequence being that when some of us gather at "real" meet-ups, a certain uniformity is to be expected. Theres also the "Group-Buy" phenomenon, where people coveting similar kit can purchase it for a reduced price if they agree to centralise their buying muscle.
As for me, I have made my own knives, sheaths, clothing, underblanket, possible bags, cooking pots etc, etc.

ATB

Ogri the trog

 

[spamel]

Who cares! At the end of the day, get out and do it whether it is with a blanket and an old pan from the kitchen over a fire or with a couple of hundred quids worth of sleeping system and hi tech pots and cookers.

Nobody here has the exact same kit, I promise you of that. One or two items maybe, due to their robustness and cost. A lot of the kit you may need, and I didn't say you do need or you will be cast out, can be purchased through surplus stores. I've seen guys tip up in all sorts, Tilley hats, leather hats, woolen hats, swannis, army jumpers, lightweight trousers, full DPM and so on and that is just their clothing.

I am not the sort of person, and nor is anybody else that I've met on the meets, to question somebody on their choice of kit because it doesn't fit with some unspoken rule of what you should use. The different kits is something of an interest for me, and at the meets I can see all sorts of different kit being used by people. Bulldog billies, Zebra billies, Tatonka billies, Trangia pot sets and so on and so forth. They all work, but what do you hear of the most? The Zebra billies. Is there any wonder they are so popular?

 

[Grooveski]

If I recall you were wearing a wetsuit... and there was a viking there too..

Sounds a bit Village People - maybe a uniform wouldn't be a bad idea.

 

[Bogman10]

I'm really not sure, I'm a bit of a gear hog myself, the stuff I first bought was effective and cheap, in many cases picked up whenever I found a bargain. However as I've heard recommendations or seen kit that looks like it might be better or that I just want and where I've have the money I've bought it. I bought a Laplander saw because I wanted to find out if it was better than the cheap B&Q one I had - if it is it's only just better, has a more secure locking mechanism perhaps. I bought a Mora because it was less than a tenner and was well recommended. I bought a swannie because everyone was raving about wool and I wanted to give it a go, I'm glad I did.

I think there is a lot of common ground, but there's also a great deal of variety and better still character, some of the best gear I've seen has been made by members here. But at the risk of sounding clichéd: at the end of the day it's not the gear you have, it's how you use it. If you can get outdoors, make yourself (reasonably ) comfortable and enjoy yourself that's all that counts to me.

I have nothing more to add to your well put post. I agree with you 100%.
I am also more then just a bit of a gear hog too , just ask my wife!

 

[Mike Ameling]

I guess I shall always be that ... old fogey heretic ... out in the hills.

I have neither seen nor coveted most of the "gear" mentioned on this forum. It just doesn't fit me. But almost all of my "camping" is historically based in the 1600's to 1700's. So my "kit" has to match what was originally available for those time periods and areas here in North America. Knife, axe, cooking pot? I made my own. Ditto most of the rest of my gear.

Some of the modern gear may work better for certain situations, but I still use those historically based items.

Such is my journey through this life.

Mikey - yee ol' grumpy blacksmith out in the Hinterlands

p.s. Hammock? In a historical context, nobody would have been carrying around a hammock to go "camping". They were only used aboard ship - and then only on some ships, like the Brit Navy. So I'm still trying to understand the appeal of carrying a hammock along to camp in. Yes, I have used a hammock at home and aboard ship. That's why I'm having such a hard time understanding why people would carry one. But, to each his own.

 

[SimonM]

Why are we stressing about something that doesn't matter?

If you are outdoors around a fire then wool is the ideal insulating layer - I have Swanni & Dockers shirts, as do others - uniform NO! just practical.

I started with an old DPM shelter sheet but after seeing Waylands huge tarp at Middlewood have bought one - Again because it is tried and tested and PRACTICAL as I intend to take my kids out with me and will need the extra space.

What I am trying to say is we all have the same basic needs - shelter, warmth and food. Like minded folk will always find similar solutions to problems, for example, how many of us made lids for our Crusader mugs? Independant thought - similar solutions!

 

[British Red]

Interesting thread. Actually I tend to find more diversity than I did a year or two ago - and more tolerance of differences in kit. For example there is ar less GB domination then there was a while ago - however if you want a really good axe in the UK, Gransfors are the "Microsoft" of axes. Sure you can obtain others. However a Wetterlings is only available from one store that some people have a problem with (and if you can't grind bevels yourself - don't buy one), Hultafors impossible to get in the UK, Ceggas are only available to people who apply to me (all applications to be written in triplicate on red paper bearing the queens head ), Lee Reeves won't take credit cards or PayPal etc. So most people buy a very good axe that is widely available. Why not indeed?

How many true Billies are there? Only Bulldog and Zebra and you do see many more Bulldogs around.

These days I see a lot more talk of Stuart Mitchell than Alan Wood - but because stu is a member here, happy to build each knife to the owners design and needs. Lots of CPM and RWL stuff steelwise too.

Perhaps the commonest stuff is Magikelly hammocks - but at under £20 delivered its easy to see why!

For me? Stu Mitchell knife, Cegga axe, Ogripot billy can, Silky saw, Leon possibles pouch.

Sorry not to conform - I was never good at conforming though

Red

 

[Scots_Charles_River]

Army kit is tried and tested and as long as it's not cammo I use it.

The plastic waterbottle/cup combo and Swedish mil. trangia, US MRE veggy food (yummy had somelast night) are good examples.

Nick

 

[Nagual]

The kit I usually take with me is the cheap cook set I got from a local shop, just about every outdoor shop has 'em for about £5. My home made tarp n sleeping bag. Thats it for 'kit', change of clothes etc nothing special or with a name. Although I'll admit to just buying a Frosts Mora, as I like the price n size of the knife and it's better than my heavy Brades axe. I'll use anything I can afford and is worth the cash, if it's expensive it doesn't mean it's good. Nor does popularity of something, but if I hear lots of people say somethings good I'll have a look see.


Nagual.

 

[Wayland]

I think it's fair to say there is a bit of a uniform that turns out at meets, it's green and wears a wide brimmed hat.

Having said that a lot of the kit is chosen because it is fit for purpose which most of the gear sold in "outdoor" shops in this country frankly is not for our use. (Think synthetic and fire.. )

Until I joined this site I struggled to find decent kit that I had not made myself. Now I am busier in my working life I have less time to make stuff and more money to buy stuff, so go figure, I buy some of the gear I see recommended here and like it.

Having said that I still adapt it to my own use. My Zebra Billy became part of my Hobo Stove, My Swannie had the breast pocket removed and reindeer horn buttons and sliders fitted because I preferred them to the plastic ones.

Even though the raw ingredients of our kit are made by the few manufactures that satify our needs, the end results are as individual as the people on this community.

 

[Tengu]

I dont have much kit as I cant afford it but I do try to buy quality when I can.

This weekend I was given a Sigg bottle for watching someones car boot stall, it is dented but that adds to the charm.

I have a mora but who doesnt?

(same for SAK)

I dont have fancy clothes but I cant afford them, nor have I decided what I need yet.